"If you do not have it, then where is the bag?"

Translation:Als jij hem niet hebt, waar is de tas dan?

4 years ago

38 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Gement
GementPlus
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Word order is making me tear my hair out. I have read the explanation of all the different word orders and where they go (https://www.duolingo.com/comment/3733010), and I still end up with things like

Als hebt je het niet, dan waar de tas is?

No matter how many times I practice, I get any sentences involving these problems, starting around conjunctions, wrong about half the time, even when I know the sentences almost by heart because I've practiced so many times.

I try to follow the weird exception rules, but I guess the wrong weird exception often enough that I might as well be guessing at random. It's very frustrating.

Does anyone have advice on a more systematic way to try to understand this? I feel like a piece of my brain must be broken.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/csharpmajor

It's heb je, not hebt je because you take away the T when the verb comes before je/jij.

It's "waar is de tas" because it's a question. Verb comes before the noun, same as in English.

The placement of "dan" is harder. I guess you just put it at the end in Dutch. Word order does my head in too, but I've been slowly getting better! Just keep practising!?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SeanMeaneyPL
SeanMeaneyPL
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I guess it's because otherwise you end up with waar and tas (two elements) before the verb, and the verb needs to occupy second position. I think. I'm sure someone will correct me if this is wrong.

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Janet427540

I really struggled with word order but signed up to an online course (learndutch.org) which explained it all brilliantly - and provided a neat summary table so you know. It cost money but was well worth it. I don't get it right all the time but at least I have some idea. There are basically three situations 1) standard word order (I have ...) 2) inverted word order (have I ... instead of I have...) 3) subclause word order (I...[other words]... have)

It depends on the conjunction and the order of the sentence. There are five conjunctions which don't change word order. To make it confusing a few of the conjuctions have different meaning if used with inversion or subclause word order.

In this example you have subclause word order in the first half of the sentence because of "als".

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Janet427540

There's also a good website called http://www.dutchgrammar.com/

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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Gement, you need to be able to tell the difference between a subordinate clause and a main clause. In the example you wrote, "Als hebt je het niet, dan waar de tas is", you have mistakenly treated the "Als" clause like a main clause and the "waar is dan" clause like a subordinate clause.

How to tell the difference?

  1. A subordinate clause begins with one of the words that are known as "subordinating conjunctions". You can find a list of those in most Dutch (or English) grammars.

  2. In contrast, a main clause begins with no conjunction at all, or with a coordinating conjunction. There are relatively few coordinating conjunctions in Dutch (or English) so it may be easier to memorize those than to memorize the subordinating conjunctions.

  3. As a rule of thumb, a main clause can stand by itself as a sentence, whereas a subordinate clause would be incomplete on its own. So, for example, "Where is the bag?" could be a sentence on its own, so it is a main clause here. But with "If you do not have it" the thought is not complete, a sign that that is a subordinate clause.

  4. Don't make the mistake of thinking that here the clause beginning with "If" must be the main clause because it comes first. That is not so. A subordinate clause can come at the beginning, middle, or end of a Dutch (or English) sentence.

1 day ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dinnernugget
dinnernugget
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Why is "it" "hem" here? Why not "het"?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Simius
Simius
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Because "tas" is a de-word. See here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/3852773

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Trixy-la-Louve

Duo didn't tell me my sentence was wrong because of "het", it didn't underline the word, but it did mark me wrong for " dan waar is" in stead of "waar is dan"

So now I am curious... "Het" is definitely wrong here, right? And "dan waar is" is the wrong word order?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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Yes, "dan waar" is wrong word order. The verb in a main clause must be second element. See comments elsewhere on this page.

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FilipFilip17
FilipFilip17
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Is it wrong if I say “Als jij haar niet hebt”? I know “de tas” from German as “die Tasche”.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/9COHpVEM
9COHpVEMPlus
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So, does that mean you can't know if "hem" means "it" or "him" until you reach the noun near the end of the sentence? For example: "Als jij hem niet hebt, waar is de jongen dan?"

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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That's right, you don't know at first what "hem" refers to. On the other hand, the feeling that it is important to know right away whether it refers to a person or a thing is a feeling that an English speaker might have, but perhaps not a Dutch (or German) speaker.

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Helen613612
Helen613612
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Notes & tips earlier say that Dutch has a V2 word order... but the verb "hebben" isn't exactly 2nd in this sentence. Any clues as to why?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Janet427540

Yes, it's a subclause despite being the first half of the sentence, because the sentence starts with "Als".
I have posted elsewhere in this email chain on this issue. I also found sentence order really confusing and even some Dutch people couldn't explain it clearly to me but two websites were really helpful at explaining the rules - learndutch.org and dutchgrammar.com Once you underestand the rules it's (quite) easy!

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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Helen, the V2 rule applies only to main clauses and/or to entire sentences, not to subordinate clauses. Here the main clause is "Waar is de tas dann". The conjugated verb "is" is in 2nd position in that clause ("waar dan is de tas" would be wrong).

Bear in mind that the V2 rule is not really about the order of individual words, but rather the order of sentence elements. Somtimes an "element" will be just a single word, but other times it may be an entire phrase or clause.

For example, consider "Als jij hem niet hebt, moet het in de tas zitten". In that sentence, the entitre clause geninng with "als" up through the comma is the first element, and the conjugated verb "moet" is then second.

In the DL sentence here, note there is a slight complication. The first element is a clause beginning with "als". But then it seems that the second element is not a conjugated verb, as we might expect, but the question word "waar".

The answer is that the V2 rule, as fully detailed, allows question words to be slipped in ahead of the conjugated verb without bring counted as an element separate from the conjugated verb.

1 day ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Anca346099

Why is "dan" at the end? "Then where is the tas" = 'dan waar is de tas' not 'waar is de tas dan' ... help (

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KentReyes999
KentReyes999
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you can see it as, "where is the bag then?"

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/teferiii

Isn't "de tas" female?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/weirdchair
weirdchair
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Plenty of Dutch people today increasingly make no such distinction.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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Are you asking why the Dutch here does not use "haar" instead of "hem" or "het"?

The answer is that in standard Dutch, all common-gender nouns (the "de" nouns") are referred to by hij/hem when they are things; "haar" is reserved for people.

However, my understanding is that Belgian Dutch (so-called "Flemish") does use ze/zij/haar to refer to "female" things -- when they remember which those are!

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sylvester1985

Could we put 'dan' in front of the second clause, instead of at the end. E.g. 'dan waar is de tas?' Like how in English you could either say, 'then where is the bag?' or 'where is the bag then?'

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/monkey_47
monkey_47
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I did that and DL marked it as wrong. It certainly sounds like "... dan waar is de tas?" should be correct.

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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It does not sound correct if you know Dutch (or German). The vern must be the second element. (Here "waar"is the first element.)

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PowerBoyAakash

Why not indien here? And thank God, I am seeing hem for the firdt time ever... I know its a pronoun to a de-word and now it seems that for unspecified subjects, we use het generally.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Davidamacy

In some of my cross-studies in memrise, babbel, youtube, rosetta stone and talking to natives, I've found that the pronoun "him" is sometimes used to refer to an object of focus in a sentence. As in, "if you don't have 'him'(rather than it), then where is the bag?"

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MaureenCG

however Duo accepted het in my answer

9 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arkonide
Arkonide
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I had '....dan waar is de tas' too. Is this correct or not?

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/xMerrie
xMerrie
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No, that word order doesn't work

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arkonide
Arkonide
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Thank you, it did not sound too bad in my ears but it could be the influence of my English thinking. I keep on learning

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alisdair293621

Why not?

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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Alisdair, in a main clause, the verb must be the second element. dan =1, waar =2, es = 3 is wrong.

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RogerioDou

People thanks for he brilliant explanation and dedication to our understanding You are great

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DenysRoshc

sorry, but why "hebt" is in the end of the first part? other is clear

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/xMerrie
xMerrie
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"Als jij hem niet hebt" is a type of subordinate clause. In a subordinate clause, the finite verb comes at the end.

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DenysRoshc

thanks a lot

1 week ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ion1122
ion1122
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I received an e-mail with the following question, which I do not see reproduced on this page:

WhimsicalRam wrote: Why is the first part of the sentence the Subordinate clause here?

Whinsical, see my comment on this page in reply to Gement.

1 day ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Rose598772
Rose598772
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so what is it 'hem' and not 'het'? What is the rule please?

1 minutes ago
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