The Sobremesa Coterie -- August 2014
The Sobremesa Coterie is a group of learners interested in collaborating to find and translate well-written and challenging pieces, mostly consisting of literature, history, arts and science. The details of the group can be found here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/3920749
This is the discussion thread for activity in August. It contains a list of the articles the group is working on together, and will be later updated to provide a link to the following month, as well as to list completed articles.
This session is closed. Our September session can be found at: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/4398119
Dos Pesos de Agua, Juan Bosch (1909-2001) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/1a8cb983443059d9c8e1a0f0db67384d
La Mujer, Juan Bosch (1909-2001) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/75a5593638d4af49ef46aecdd2e2d17d
Del avance hacia Madrid y de la Batalla de Seseña [palocortado] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/f96359bec515aa72df7843de08f2ee0c
Relatos que iluminan las sombras [xiangfangshefa] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/86837f095b0b3e860856fe8e90b3659f
Una caja de plomo que no se podía abrir, José Luis González (1926-1997) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/cf794cee8466940685ac24b292365148
Valparaíso, un lugar para la tragedia [AlexisLinguist] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/6ffdcc0f2387d96e4b278255c0454974
La irresistible decadencia de Coney Island [AlexisLinguist] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/51445360c2525107df4d317b95e1178b
Tramontana, Gabriel García Márquez (Aracataca, Colombia 1928 - México DF, 2014) [palocortado] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/11945383366765ea4a72884e1042bd12
Semejante a la noche, Alejo Carpentier (La Habana, 1904-París, 1980) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/61f4273036242a659df07460c28fe2f2
Dos Amigos, Juan Bosch (1909-2001) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/3199c71feca585851cc6abee4322baf0
La luz es como el agua, Gabriel García Márquez (Aracataca, Colombia 1928 - México DF, 2014) [palocortado] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/5aedb88697d97aad74baeb605ab5d4fb
Vallejo y Neruda: Dos modos de influir, César Vallejo (Perú, 1892-Paris, 1938) [palocortado] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/e231215d46b67e6cca051af15afe55d9
Mi primer concierto, Felisberto Hernández (Uruguay, 1902-1964) [palocortado] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/f1748a967254b38f6393451422e012b0
A partir de esta noche, Bonaparte Gautreaux Piñeyro (1937–) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/1706f80e09e83cea0cdcb8be6d99b182
Estatuas sepultadas, Antonio Benítez Rojo (1931-) [palocortado] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/2682d059e6a86f4a15a561b48ddd0f4b
La tortuga gigante, Horacio Quiroga (1879-1937) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/16b482cbb0ffc40b69a202cb78228bdc
Ojos de Perro Azul, Gabriel García Márquez (Aracataca, Colombia 1928 - México DF, 2014) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/6abae916be647ee469967013e9c3367b
137 Comments This discussion is locked.
Alexis came up with a name for the group yesterday: The Sobremesa Coterie.
Here's her comment: "Hmm...I've become captivated by "sobremesa". I'm sure you've already heard of it before, and the meaning (which can also be "table talk") seems fitting for our group. We're serious about translations, but not "intense", if that makes sense. Maybe something like Traducción Sobremesa, or simply sobremesa would work? "
The idea has evolved into The Sobremesa Coterie since then, but all suggestions are welcome :)
I've uploaded a new Bosch story:
Perhaps we need to find a consensus about this, Anirudh. From my viewpoint we have already learned what is useful in this story to promote our Spanish skills. Every sentence has been attempted and we are now just debating nuances and "flavor." Arguing over words we will never use interests when it may affect our understanding of the story but not after that. The story will remain open for any who want to continue refining it, but I didn't believe that was a beneficial group activity any longer.
Fear not Alexis! I WILL NEVER upload a Wikipedia article. They are hideous! I've tried some written on subjects I know thoroughly. I certainly wouldn't want to learn the Spanish "style" in which they were written, and the content is............ I really wonder whether there's any oversight at all of the Spanish Wiki.
I came across this website Nonada (http://nonada.es/) that seems to publish a lot of articles on modern culture, literature, interviews with artists, and the like. (There are articles in both Spanish and Portuguese.)
I'm not sure how its politics (self-described "alternative") align with other folks in the group, but there is a lot of material on a range of topics and the discourse is conducted at a challenging level. The license is Creative Commons, but I've refrained from posting an article because I wanted to see what people's thoughts were. Even if it's not suitable for practicing translation, it is certainly good practice just to read it (and of course it's plenty interesting material in its own right).
I've taken a glance, and it looks like you have found a gold mine (and on your first day as an official member, too!) We can always skip the political articles to avoid any controversy (especially since non-members translate, and may feel the need to speak their minds on any touchy subject), but we seem to have a plethora of articles to choose from.
Oy vey, I'm having some reservations about the license. It's creative commons, but it has a "No Derivatives" right, and I'm not sure whether this kind of CC right prohibits us from modifying (translating) an article. Does anyone here know the answer? (I've posted a question in the discussion forums, too.) It's a shame because the articles are so well-written.
Ok now I'm noticing that many other articles have the No Derivatives right included and that hasn't stopped anyone else. I've uploaded a shortish article (https://www.duolingo.com/translation/86837f095b0b3e860856fe8e90b3659f) to test the waters. (The low hanging fruit are already being snatched up!)
There are "them" (the fast ones) and "us" (the slow ones). Actually I'm doing some translating away from DL. Points and tiers don't really motivate me and I learn less correcting others than struggling on my own away from DL's helpful translation options. BUT that doesn't mean I'm dropping out of the group. We have too much fun arguing over things and collective work does offer some learning opportunities that solo work doesn't. :)))
Do you really have to ask, given Anirudh's twisted mind? Sounds like something he would wake up to in the middle of the night (after overeating on prawns or some such delicacy) and think, "I know something alliterative" [he thinks that way] "and it will drive Alexis bonkers. I'll do it!" He can be a pill like that!
CONGRATULATIONS. You are fast and work at a high level of accuracy. You deserved the whole batch, but half is good!
Oh...by the time I looked at the articles you uploaded today, they were already translated except for one or two (literally) sentences.
I've just made an outside copy of a story DL refused to upload. Maybe I can figure out what triggers those refusals. I might be able to delete a word or two and then try the upload again. It would be easy enough to supply the missing text to the group.
We'll see! Arthur
OK Anirudh, here's a long story. Maybe we'll all get a chance at this one.
I've spent time today reading (not really translating) the story DL refused to upload. It's essentially about a young guy fantasizing about a girl in the subway car with him. He imagines stealing one of her shoes, not returning it, taking her foot in hand---until she responds---and they wind up in a hotel room.
It's a seduction fantasy, not really lurid, BUT it has several occurrences of the "f" word and that is surely what DL caught and blocked. I can't believe DL blocks things because of overall content, since the blocking is virtually instantaneous.
I'm starting a new semester in the university and I took a subject called "Literatura, ficción y realidad". Today I had my first class and I'm sure it's going to be great.
We are will read 3 whole books during the semester and some other short stories, really good Spanish literature (some Colombian). If you like I can suggest some of those to have some fun here, also I can get interesting info about the stories, the authors, context, etc., since we discuss that in the class. I'll try to find if some of them are in digital form or in some website to be able to upload.
Have a good night (or day) =P.
Adding a new story from the collection Doce Cuentos Peregrinos/Strange Pilgrims, called Tramontana, which I know pretty much by-heart. I read Edith Grossman's translation, which lived a long, full life, and now has retired cosily into my bookshelf. I'm not going to work on it too much, because Edith's words are sure to come out very strongly if I did, so I'll just give it a look after the translation is mostly done :)
Apologies for taking a while to move the completed articles. I was in transit. Got to Singapore this morning! Cheers!
Added to current articles: Dos Amigos, Juan Bosch (1909-2001) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/3199c71feca585851cc6abee4322baf0
added one more to the bottom of "current articles". I uploaded it and then removed it to work on as a personal project. I'm just putting it up here in case anyone would like to read it/help me tidy it up ;) I'll move it to completed/remove it entirely if nobody bites in a week or so.
Any of you who want to do the same, feel free to, and I'd be happy to help proofread!
New article in 'Current':
A partir de esta noche, Bonaparte Gautreaux Piñeyro (1937–) [4arthur] https://www.duolingo.com/translation/1706f80e09e83cea0cdcb8be6d99b182
Should we have a policy of uploading articles and immediately taking them off line? A comment in another thread taught me a couple things about the "gamers." They appear immediately when an article is uploaded. They translate all the simplest stuff and botch up some other sentences here and there. Then we never see those names again. They're off to the next article just uploaded.
The suggestion was to upload, remove at once, then restore in a week. By that time the upload is so far down the "Immersion" list that the blither brains don't find it. We could actually get in some of our own translating rather than spending all our time editing. Editing each other is productive. Editing nonsense is maddening.
I've been mulling this same thought this week, and thought about posing it. Beat me to it, Arthur. ;) I'm all for this. The people who are actually trying should be starting with easier articles. Makes it easier on them and us. And for the others who are out there to drive us mad, it keeps a good barrier so fists don't fly.
With the busyness of Spanish Immersion, I doubt we would even need to wait a week. 3 to 5 days would probably be sufficient.
Who downvoted Alexis' and your comments???
Don't call me founder like it's a position of power ;) I'm just a 'facilitator'! This is a good idea. I've been doing that for the articles I upload for a while now, but more in an attempt to get through all the shortest sentences, so as to discourage point piranhas. I didn't know there were gamers clicking refresh every ten seconds to catch the latest upload. They sure have one helluva(n) interesting life. (I like the word 'helluva', but do you add an 'n' at the end when followed by a word-initial vowel, for the liaison?)
The downvoters are attacking...rolls eyes so hard they fall onto the floor.
How much do you want to bet that they aren't refreshing every second? I once uploaded an article for no more than thirty seconds, I believe, and there were already translated sentences by the time I removed it. I love people.
Heckuva is much better. :P No liaison. Remember, this is slang. ;)
Well...now that we are blocking the pariahs, I'm coming out swinging at Alexis! :) I would definitely, absolute, positively and most likely say, " He has a helluv an interesting life." The "n' would slid in more subtly than that though. More like "helluvun:." I have trouble wrapping my mouth around "helluva interesting." "Unin" does run together better than "a in."
This is a BIG deal. My fingers are pressed to my forehead and I'm bracing for a counterattack.
Ha ha! Reminds me of the time I forgot what a paper towel was called. I was laughing hysterically with a sibling as we called it everything but.
It's fun to be in this group, with a BE speaker, AE speaker not like me (you), AE speaker like me (Oleron), a Spanish speaker learning English that's going to end up a mix of both, and others that I haven't gotten a chance to analyze yet.
Not really suitable for Duolingo, but
Gabriel García Márquez, “El último viaje del buque fantasma”
2124 words, one sentence
All the more reason to do it! No periods, only colons and semi-colons. That would be great. We'd have to make sure to keep people off of that. The first person to select translate would get 2000+ XP, even by only translating the first word. I'd rather have that go to a team member. :)
I get this message all the time, Emanuel, and I'm uploading from a site that has only famous Spanish-speaking authors. I'm pretty sure that DL has a bot that scans for "inappropriate" words---as may appear when an author writes in the voice of a character. One of these days I plan on translating one of these stories off-line, apart from DL, to see what is so offensive in them.
Many North Americans have very tender ears. They can be damaged psychologically beyond hope of recovery, by some words. It bothers me a lot more when someone takes a ball bat to me. :))
This is somewhat tangential, but for those of you "learning" English in Spanish have you noticed how incomprehensible many of the spoken English sentences are? It's not a matter of accent, or of dialect. It's someone who pronounces some words perfectly well and others garbled beyond recognition.
I've made mistakes listening to those sentences in "English" and then writing in English. The relevance here is my concern that we are hearing equally garbled Spanish on this side of the divide. Should we really be mimicking what we hear here?
Yes, I have. Whenever I have the audio on, there's at least one question that leaves me scratching my head.
That's why it's great to learn Spanish pronunciation rules. I knew the sounds beforehand, so I can sound them out, and not have to bother with the sometimes faulty audio.
I've done some Spanish--> English lessons, and I think they are several orders of magnitude worse than the English--> Spanish. In the S->E, they mess up the natural metre of sentences, the syllabic stress is all wrong, and some words are pronounced quite incorrectly. In E->S, I haven't noticed words being mispronounced. Nor have I noticed their stress to be in the wrong places. I think that's because Spanish has very black-and-white rules when it comes to pronunciation and stress, and wherever it deviates, it uses a diaeresis and an accent aigu to show that it's different -- something that can be programmed into a machine voice's algorithm.
I'd like to recommend other short stories:
- La noche que volvimos a ser gente - José Luis González
- La muñeca menor - Rosario Ferré
- Fantasida - Edgardo Sanabria Santaliz
- Dos palabras - Isabel Allende
- El árbol - María Lisa Bombal
- Apocalipsis - Marcos Denevi
- Casa tomada - Julio Cortázar
- El ahogado más hermoso del mundo - Gabriel García Márquez
- El lobo, el bosque y el hombre nuevo - Senel Paz
- A la deriva - Horacio Quiroga
- La gallina degollada - Horacio Quiroga
- Una noche así - Miguel Delibes
- Atasco - Soledad Puértolas
- El espejo de las sombras - Lourdes Ortiz
Today I'll reopen "La tortuga gigante, Horacio Quiroga (1879-1937)" as a new activity for our group. This should be the link, Anirudh: https://www.duolingo.com/translation/16b482cbb0ffc40b69a202cb78228bdc
La tortuga gigante didn't even last a day, Anirudh. It can be called complete now....at least I've been through all of it and am finished. Not a very good story unfortunately but easier than most that we've worked on. Perhaps it offered a bit of a breather. Everyone in it was still alive at the end. That's a new experience for us! :)
We need another story now that we've finished, "La tortuga gigante." I have another Marquéz story ready to upload ("Ojos de perro azul") and will post it around Noon tomorrow (Pacific Daylight Time). That's about twelve hours from now (t's just past midnight here).
As in the past I'll translate the titles and the site material at the end, plus a few of the opening sentences. I'll leave the rest for a day or two while the group works on it---both revising my opening translations and starting work on the untranslated material.
I decided to mention a time because there are usually vultures who attack a new story immediately to scan through and pick off the easy sentences. Anirudh translates those before uploading which is a good way to assure some consistency, but I like to work top to bottom. A matter of style. Get there fast and pick the easy stuff yourselves! :))
A todos vosotros que habéis colaborado en estos cuentos y artículos (y a otros que siguen esta discusión),
Muchísimas gracias desde el fondo de mi corazón, por haber convertido este grupo en una de las mejores colaboraciones jamás vistas en DL. Por mi parte, os agradezco muchísimo el esfuerzo, sin el cual no hubiéramos podido traducir ni la mitad de todos estos cuentos. Dentro de sólo un mes, hemos conseguido traducir 17 artículos, y encima, de muy buena calidad, aprendiendo (al menos yo) un montón de nuevas cosas :)
Ahora que me encuentro un poco agobiado del trabajo en la universidad, me viene un poco difícil mantener el hilo donde coordinamos nuestros esfuerzos. Así que os pido que alguien me ayude a mantener uno para el mes de septiembre. :) :)
Querido Anirudh, Hemos completado diecisiete historias y este "hilo" es demasiado largo. Definitivamente, queremos mantener el grupo unido, ¿pero podemos empezar una nueva página? ¿Empezar de cero con un nuevo conjunto de historias?
Si el liderazgo significa la simple publicación de historias y luego moverlos, al terminar, a la lista traducida, yo podía hacer eso. Pero necesito que se me diga cómo poner esto en marcha. Arthur
Sí señor, lo mejor sería que empecemos un nuevo hilo. Pongamos el enlace aquí (y en el otro hilo --TSC landing page) que dirija a la nueva sesión (de septiembre), y así todo será mucho más manejable.
Muchísimas gracias amigo. Eso es exactamente lo que tendrás que hacer (you see I'm already speaking in the second-person). Si lo pudiéramos mantener todos, me apuntaría también, pero como sólo él que inicia el hilo lo puede editar, es mejor que alguien con más tiempo lo mantenga.
Cuando puedas, inicia un nuevo hilo con más o menos el mismo formato y pon el enlace aquí :) Luego si tienes más preguntas, te aconsejaré. Ahora tengo que salir corriendo, que voy a una reunión de gente que quiere practicar el italiano.
Abrazos a todos :) -- Ani
MEMBERS OF THE SOBREMESA COTERIE. A new thread is now open for September and I've agreed to monitor the page for Anirudh. Send me the link, posted to my icon, of any article you upload for our group. Also when an article is completely translated and the person who uploaded it is satisfied, let me know and I will move it to our "completed" list. In August we completed 17 articles!
We're an active group who like each other. New members are always welcome if they are serious but also have a sense of humor and can accept editing without throwing tantrums. :) Here's the new site: