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- "Il ghiaccio si rompe."
57 Comments
A reflexive verb is one where the subject is also the object: I kick myself.
Italian often uses a reflexive form where English would use passive. An example from today's newspaper: "Il Comitato direttivo centrale che si è tenuto oggi a Roma." "Che si è tenuto oggi" literally means "which held itself today," but in English we would say it was held today (or it took place today).
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I understand what reflexive verbs are since I've already started learning Spanish. But I want to ask, linguistically, should we call this case a reflexive verb, passive sentence or both?
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"Lui rompe il ghiaccio" is surely using rompere as a transitive rather than an intransitive verb as you state. Or am I missing something?
1622
There's really no other quick way to describe it when river ice breaks up in the Spring. Nobody is break it up, it just breaks up on it's own, though it's the effect of a number of different outside factors.
1622
Well, Duo should accept "breaks up", because otherwise this sentence has very little relevance to the English language. "Breaking the ice" means to get people to interact less formally at a gathering. Otherwise, ice breaks up.
1039
Nah, you don't need a phrasal verb. "The ice breaks" is correct, preferable, and perfect. The ice breaks up....with...what? Its girlfriend, the icicle? Just...?
1622
Libellule808
You're thinking in the non-reflexive, transitive form of the verb, while the exercise is clearly dealing with the reflexive verb.
Yes, "break up" in transitive form would require a direct object, such as a girlfriend (I didn't find you little joke funny, BTW. Everyone is a comedian, I guess. But don't give up your day-job.).
This, however, is si rompere not rompere. When ice breaks by itself, it breaks up, almost invariably. The ice in the river breaks up - not breaks.
And please note: I'm not saying that "break" by itself is wrong, I'm saying that "break up" should be an additional meaning, not a substitute meaning. You seem to be arguing that "break" should be the exclusive meaning, and "break up" is incorrect.
You're wrong.
Verbs are either transitive or intransitive, meaning they either require an object or not. In your sentence, "when I break something.." something is the direct object and break is a transitive verb; when you say, "Something breaks/broke", the verb is intransitive because it does not require an object.
It is wrong because in Il ghiacco rompe, rompe doesn't have an object. In other words, the ice isn't breaking something, the ice itself is breaking. If the ice broke the boat, for example (admittedly a poor one), the verb would no longer be reflexive and the reflexive pronoun si would not be required.
At least that's what I've figured out so far. I may be wrong. :)
Rompere is a quite a (maybe all too) common verb in my experience in Italy. Genuine grammar question follows related to reflexive - anyone (Italian probably best) care to give me the Italian for "he breaks my balls") {Hope this is allowed by mods - was thinking of blanking it but then I might get some blanked language advice back :) :( ] Something else is being broken but then being done to me.
with "rompere" you can build quite a lot of swearing. But I'm sure you already know them. Everyone who has been in Italy and with italians, even for a month only, should already know them. Anyway, if you want to have fun, look for these strings with google:
- "non mi rompere le"
- "non mi rompere il"
- "non mi rompere i"
- "ti rompo il"
1886
Perhaps it's grammatically transitive, but logically cannot be. How can an inanimate non sensate object break itself?
Nor to me. Reflexives don't always translate from one language into another exactly as such. My suggestion is if a reflexive translation doesn't make sense or sounds unnatural then leave the reflexive pronoun out. Ex.Mi sono svegliato = I woke up. To say "I woke myself up", while possible in some scenario, isn't what the construction means which is simply "I woke up." Waking usually isn't something conscious or intentional, it just happens.
Thanks! I did some searching on reflexive verbs and found some useful info online, I don't think it is covered in DL very well. For others struggeling: this site made me understand it better, and also explains how the reflexive pronouns (mi, ti, si, ci, vi) are derived: http://www.lifeinitaly.com/italian/reflexive-verbs
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In the non-reflexive form, yes. Rompere il ghiaccio - to break the ice - to initiate conversation in order to avoid social awkwardness. Take a look :) - http://dizionari.corriere.it/dizionario-modi-di-dire/G/ghiaccio.shtml#6
960
I, an old grandma, is trying to learn Italian. I can´t understand why I lost a heart because I didn´t spell "breaks" right in the English translation of " si rompe" . It is Italian I study not English. All the other words were right!
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How would we say, "When someone says something, the ice is broken." Or, is there an Italian idiom for this that differs from our idiom?