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"Se on rikki ja pitää korjata."

Translation:It is broken and needs to be fixed.

June 24, 2020

21 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Igloosaurus

I might be wrong but it feels more correct to say "Se on rikki ja SEN pitää korjata". Maybe you don't need the extra sen but this sounds more correct to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zzzzz...

We are dealing with necessity verbs here. That means that you can start a sentence with either the subject or the object. If the sentence begins with a word in the genitive (the one that ends in an n), that word is the subject:

  • Pyryn pitää korjata tuoli. Pyry needs to fix a/the chair.

If the first part is in the nominative, it means that we are are dealing with the object:

  • Tuoli pitää korjata. The chair needs to be fixed.

Notice how the first "chair" can be translated with both types of articles found in English but the latter needs to be translated with the definite "the"? That's because things that appear in the beginning of the sentence tend to be more complete and heavier than if they appeared later. This is why "It is broken and (it) needs to fixed" is translated with Se on rikki ja (se) pitää korjata. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AGreatUserName

Can you put the genitive argument later too or does that seem weird?

  • Tuoli pitää korjata Pyryn / Tuoli pitää Pyryn korjata. The chair needs to be fixed by Pyry.

Are those OK or strange?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zzzzz...

The emphasis is in very different place in these sentences and the first sentence is also grammatically different. Both sound like Yoda speak too. The first one would be better translated with "That chair of Pyry's fixed needs to be" (Pyryn sounds more like a genitive referring to the chair here) and the latter is more akin to "It's the chair that Pyry to fix needs" (not the table, or the bed, or the clock, etc.). :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JANBOEVINK

Hi Zzzzz.., Thanks for all your guidance. This question refers to your comment above that missed the reply button till I added this.-pitää korjata tuoli-. -I need to fix the chair- Why -I-, why not -you- or -we-?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zzzzz...

In a sentence like that you need to use the genitive form in the subject position. Here are the genitive forms of the personal pronouns:

  • minun my/mine
  • sinun your/yours
  • hänen his/her/hers
  • meidän our/ours
  • teidän your/yours
  • heidän their/theirs

However, in the 1st person singular, it's very common to leave the pronoun out completely. You can sometimes hear it being left out in the 1st person plural as well, but that is much rarer.

  • Ainon pitää korjata auto. Aino needs to fix the car.
  • (minun) Pitää korjata pöytä. I have to fix the table.
  • Sinun pitää maalata talo. You have to paint the house.
  • Hänen pitää käydä kotona. S/he needs to pop home.
  • (Meidän) pitää tanssia koko yö. We need to dance all night.
  • Teidän pitää juosta nopeasti. You (all) need to run fast.
  • Heidän pitää istua tuolla. They need to sit (over) there.

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AGreatUserName

Ah thanks! So you can use the genitive after the noun it refers to too? Pyryn tuoli and tuoli Pyryn can both mean "Pyry's chair"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zzzzz...

Well, those sentences are in Yoda speak, so I would not use that order unless you're an aspiring poet. Here's the sentence in "normal" Finnish: Pyryn tuoli pitää korjata, "Pyry's chair needs to be fixed". That's in passive voice, so no knowledge of who is doing the fixing. If the person speaking is the one who should repair the chair: Pitää korjata Pyryn tuoli, "I need to fix Pyry's chair". In both cases, the genitive precedes the noun it defines and that's how it normally works in Finnish. There are only a couple of set phrases in which the order is reversed. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mirja_Tsunami

Correct translation: Se on rikki ja se täytyy korjata.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JANBOEVINK

-It is broken and needs fixing- was rejected , but avoids the -be fixed-, which is transitive. I have reported that too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AGreatUserName

Why would we need to avoid "be fixed"? Fix is indeed a transitive verb, but I think you meant to say it is passive.

"It is broken and needs fixing," should definitely be added too though, yeah! It's quite common across dialects of English as far as I can tell, but absent from my speech completely. In some US dialects (and possibly some elsewhere too?) they'd even say "It's broken and needs fixed," which is very odd to me, but perfectly acceptable in those dialects.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JANBOEVINK

Thanks for your support and for the term passive. I could not think of the term -passive- when I wrote my comment above.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oinophilos

"It needs fixed" I learned is part of the "North Midlands" American dialect, i.e. what's spoken across the northern half of the country excepting New England and much of New York. I hear it now and then even from educated speakers, so it must sound natural to them. "My hair needs cut"--sounds weird to me, too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SteveA.B.

Never noticed that in Indiana ... or anywhere else. Even if someone did say "It needs fixed," etc., I still wouldn't hear it because my brain would correct it to standard English automatically. Like if I say, "How, hi are you," would anyone notice that I'm asking how high they are? No. Zero. Try it. The intonation has to match the correct wording: How! high are you? Emphasis on "are."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NazarahTheCat

Shouldn't pitää korjata means "should be fixed"? Tarvita sounds closer to mean "needs"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Igloosaurus

As a native Finnish speaker (meaning it's based on instinct) here's what sounds right to me: Pitää korjata means "needs to be fixed". Täytyy works the same as pitää in this case (and in most cases, really). "Should be fixed" would be pitäisi korjata, with pitää in the conditional form. I wouldn't use tarvita in this context. Tarvita does mean to need but more in the context of "I need something", usually a noun, rather than a verb; "minä tarvitsen kynän" (I need a pencil) vs. "minun pitää juosta" (I need to run), as an example. Hope this makes sense, and again this is all based on what sounds right to me so please correct me if something's off!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oinophilos

Is pitää a noun in the partitive? What form is korjata, the infinitive acting as a gerund? "it needs fixing"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zzzzz...

pitää is a verb meaning "to need to/to have the inner need to". It only exists in the 3rd person singular (regardless of the subject). korjata is the 1st infinitive. pitää, like haluta, osata, and a few other verbs taught in this course, is always followed by the 1st infinitive form whenever another verb is needed (and with pitää you always need one, unlike with the other two verbs I mention). Finnish doesn't really have modality, but if you're looking for a somewhat similar structure in English, that's the place to start from. For example, "I/You/She/He/It/We/etc. can sing." The first verb always looks the same and is followed by the 1st infinitive. The subject behaves differently with pitää though. For that, see my other comments in this discussion. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oinophilos

Thank you, now this is clear, and I see "korjata" can be translated either with passive infinitive in English or a gerund. But I don't know about first infinitve. Is there a second one? Is that the form that is used after the negative verb?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AGreatUserName

No, the form used after the negative verb is called the conegative.

Here's some information about the different kinds of infinitives in Finnish. https://uusikielemme.fi/finnish-grammar/verbs/infinitives/the-5-finnish-infinitives/


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JANBOEVINK

Your -uusikielemme- reference is excellent!

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