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  5. "Here you are, the menus."

"Here you are, the menus."

Translation:Ruokalistat, olkaa hyvä.

July 23, 2020

26 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarcinM85

Is it olkaa hyvä and not ole hyvä because it is said to several people as implied by the plural form ruokalistat?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Juha_Metsakallas

Revising my earlier response…

Ruokalistat is in plural, that's obvious. It's impossible to say, whether there are different menus or is the waiter just giving several copies of the same menu. To my understanding neither the English sentence reveals that.

It's true that olkaa hyvä can refer either to plural persons or the waiter is using the polite form (cf. Sie in German, vous in French, usted in Spanish). While generally the polite form is much seldomly used than in those languages, a situation in a restaurant could be such, where the waiter opts for it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John764473

It doesn't have to be a waiter that speaks that sentence. You could be passing the menus to your friend so would use "ole"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Juha_Metsakallas

Yes, but here we have olkaa, so I was only trying to descibe a situation where you would use that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/paxpaquin

It think (I might be wrong though, since I don't speak Finnish) you are right. According to this Web page, "olkaa" is imperative, 2nd person, plural: https://cooljugator.com/fi/olla


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cheewwie

How am I supposed to know it's a plural you? (And before you say there's plural menus, I've been to restaurants where you get 2 or 3 different menus per person at once so no it's not obvious)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarcinM85

You are right, it's not obvious. I reported Ruokalistat, ole hyvä a few times but it is still not accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

I think Duo wants to insist that we use the plural you here, to make sure we know it. No harm done.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MannuBeyHive

Why not "olkaa hyvä, ruokalistat"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Juha_Metsakallas

I wrote in the other answer, that this is a cultural thing. In English the preferred order is to put the introduction in the beginning ("Here you are…") while in Finnish the theme is preferred in the beginning (Ruokalistat since the topic of the sentence are the menus). Beginning with Olkaa hyvä isn't wrong and even used by some, but sounds a little bit strange, less than "The menus, here you are", but you should get the idea.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zamlet

So the description for "ole hyvä" given in the Tips page for the lesson "Phrases 1" is not entirely correct - in some cases, it can go before the item given?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Juha_Metsakallas

IIUC the Duolingo tips aim to give you the most used, natural sounding ways. Of course it can't take up all possible cases. A book or a site exhaustively taking up all variants even for the limited set of topics a Duolingo course covers would be several tens, if not hundreds, pages long. This goes pretty much for all courses here.

What I was trying to say, was that

  • Ruokalistat, olkaa hyvä.

is way more common than

  • Olkaa hyvä, ruokalistat.

which because of being less common sounds a little bit strange.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

A bit of irony this morning as I learned some English from a Finn.

IIUC = If I understand correctly. Thank you, Juha. =D


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zamlet

Fair enough. The thing I can say about myself as a learner is that I understand something best when I'm given as much information as possible. Duolingo telling me that something is "wrong" when it is actually correct, but simply not the most common or idiomatic way to say something, doesn't help me to understand WHY this strange (to me) and wonderful (also to me) language works the way it does, which is not always the way I expect it to.

For now, I'm interested in the mechanics. Nuance can come later... :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ivan788823

I disagree. "Ole hyva" could be accepted. Maybe the menus are given to one person. One menu is for food and the other is bar menu. I feel that my ❤️ was stolen from me. Duolingo could invite me to a nice dinner at a restaurant to fix the damage. There we could chat about menus in finnish


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BernardAda9

When does one say olkaa hyvät?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Juha_Metsakallas

This is a good question, but I am afraid my answer might be convoluted.

Short answer

It is somewhat oldfashioned form of formal addressing.

Advanced topic warning!

This Duolingo course does not take up the formal addressing, since it is used much more rarely than in other languages that have it. See my earlier comment here. Having said that the course teaches the expression olkaa hyvä, here you are, because it is the one you will most likely encounter.

For some reason the expression has stabilised into the form olkaa hyvä, where indeed the word hyvä is in singular. I have no idea why, so it is best to regard it as a fixed expression suitable for any number of persons you need to address formally.

Of course there is perhaps the more grammatically correct form olkaa hyvät, but it is considered somewhat oldfashioned and even more formal. Personally I have used it only when I have had to address a group of persons (clearly more than two, three) formally in a formal situation, like in my father's funeral when there were several elderly relatives present. I can also imagine a scene in a fine-dining restaurant where a party arrives for a full-menu dinner and after having lead the party to the table, the waiter passes the menus by saying olkaa hyvät.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaiirapetjan

I guess I need to understand better what parts of speech are involved here. I wrote, "olkaa hyvää," thinking that the "good" part had to agree. From the other comments now I understand that agreement would be making it plural, that is, adding a 't.' I guess my doubling of the 'ä' is due to some confused thinking about the partitive? I understand that menus are countable...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sushituna

I wrote 'olkaa hyvä ruokalistat' and it was marked wrong...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SteveA.B.

"Your menus, your Highnesses"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SteveA.B.

The English, "Your menus, if you please," follows the preferred Finnish word order, though it is quite formal.


[deactivated user]

    So now they have swapped the word order requirement again??

    DL how are we supposed to keep up with what order you want words in if you cant even pin it down??


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Juha_Metsakallas

    To my understanding other courses in Duolingo follow the principle, that the language to be taught should always be regarded as the origin and correct one. I have no reason to think otherwise with this course (note, I'm just a fellow student here).

    In a situation like this, where you give something, the preferred word order in Finnish is the one above. That is, begin directly with what are you giving and put the polite phrase at the end: Ruokalistat/vaihtorahat/…, ole/olkaa hyvä. English speakers seem to prefer an introductory phrase: here you are…, but I'm not sufficiently versed in English to say how to solve this.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oinophilos

    In English we sometimes put polite phrases at the end, "The menus, if you please." This could even be said by a waiter, though it sounds a bit foreign and hyper-deferential.

    But really, what a waiter would probably say is "Here are our menus."


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SteveA.B.

    I just said the same. Sorry, didn't notice your comment.

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