Thanks! This makes perfect sense! I avoid direct translations of other languages to my mother tongue (greek) in order to learn them, I think it's detrimental for the learning process, but sentences need to make sense in italian, otherwise they won't stick in my mind! That helps a lot :)
Finché means 'as long as'. Ex. Finché c'è il sole, sono felice ('As long as the sun shines, I am happy').
Finché non means 'until'. Ex. Ti ho aspettato finché non ha cominciato a piovere ('I waited for you until it started raining')
Would you mind to explain us about what term "c'è" is?
What is "raingin"? I have searched for it in my English dictionary, but I don't find such word at all.
No. How can 'don't find the dog' and' find the dog' be the same? One is a negative?
Thank you , this sort of makes sense, I just have to follow common usage, as in many languages.
would be nice if duolingo gave us a small grammar lecture about these kind of words, with uses and exceptions, instead of throwing it at us and causing confusing, while we have to ask help from other members or scower the internet.
I think it's fine for free language learning. Things like this I'd rather look up on my own or ask others about. It would be too much information if they over-explained things.
I agree. In addition to begin free, with all of its problems, the approach this app takes is proving to be extremely effective for me. There are many alternate online resources at one's fingertips to balance the help here. Taking the trouble to use those resources are a great support out to the learning experience in total.
actually this is the way a child learns. No explanations just sounds. I THINK this might actually make us more able to use Italian than the more typical lengthy explanations that require you to translate each word and phrase.
I agree an explanation in the discussion area by someone actually involved in making the Italian tree would mean those who go looking for more information are getting the right explanation. It is dishearting sometimes when people trying to help contridict each other.
in my opinion this should be translated as: "i wait until you do not find the dog" because of non. could somebody explain this?
from chris123456 about: "No, non finché non lo apri." Translation: No, not until you open it.:
In this sentence only one "non" is causing the negation. In some circumstances " non" doesn't negate things. This is a particularly tricky sentence because it has both types!! The clue is the word "finché" so approach with great caution!!
There are two ways to use "finché and you need to decide which is being used. Either "until the moment that" or "for all the time that." In the former case the use of " non" can be optional and does not change the meaning as in the above case. In the latter use the meaning is changed.
The apparently additional use of "non" is called pleonastic so you may wish to try googling that word or there is more info here: http://onlineitalianclub.com/free-italian-exercises-and-resources/italian-grammar/finche-finche-non/ Hope this helps :)
Interesting, in my mother tongue we always use this kind of pleonastic denial (literally, "ne"), regardless of the meaning as in Italian. It is also a common mistake we make when speaking English. Hint: this is one of the ways to spot a Southern Slav who hasn't polished his English yet. :)
It's not that pleonastic, though: double negation was once standard English (well, early modern one) and finchè as one may deduct from (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/italian-english/finché) functions as until only with the "postpositive" non (in fact it derives from fin+ché), otherwise it is closer to all the way up to (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/finché)
I know what you mean in my country we do quite the same... Thing is "i wait until you don't find the dog " and "i wait untik you find the dog" has the same logical meaning in English...
Thanks for the explanation. It seems so illogical to me and I guess I'll just have to take it as is
Thank you, this explanation helps a lot!
Thanks a mil this is a great explanation. Will check out this website. Similar to using double negatives in English
@Tim1988 When you hover you get : finché.. non =until, as long as,while. So, the non is part of the expression. It's not translated as not.
FINCHE NON seems to be used whenever there is use of a negative. eg. until i die ( as long as i have not died) AND until you have found the dog ( as long as you have not found the dog..
Rather beautiful how Italian encourages patience and non-perfectionism by saying literally "I'll wait as long as you don't find the dog" for " I'll wait until you find the dog." Really like it!! :)))
How good to hear someone look on the bright side. Too many people are stuck in the rut of the familiar that anything new engenders complaints. Your post was a breath of fresh air.
One of my reasons for learning Italian is that I'm interested in how learning can change the way we think. This sentence seemed a good example of how a new language can give us a new way of looking at the world and thinking differently about life. :))
You're off to a good start. Every language has a whole nation and heritage behind it. Yes, this was one of the more "unusual" examples and I'm sure you'll find a lot more windows on the Italian world and enjoy learning, too. Good for you.
That's the spirit! I commend your will to try to understand how different cultures think! :-)
In English, we would never say this. We would say either 'we will wait until you find the dog' or 'we will wait for as long as you wait for the dog.' The Italian does not translate well.
Is it just me or has the difficulty gotten far harder in this section? I had absolutely no trouble following this course untik now, and all of a sudden I find myself completely lost. How am I meant to understand how to translate these sentences? I don't recall being instructed on this grammar previously.
I agree it suddenly gets harder but all the effort of figuring it out help me to remember.
Just to make it clear: can i just say "io aspetto finché trovi il cane" without the "non"?
Hmmm. This must be the dog that eats salt. Probably looking for water lol!!
Well, we say things like "I'm not going until you find the car keys", which to a non-native English speaker no doubt sounds like "I'm not going" etc. Every language has its idiosyncracies, and "finchè non" is one of the Italian ones. We tend to think our own language is quite simple, and since we are used to it, we don't think of the inherent difficulties....until someone says "Why in English is say like this?" (We have had several Italian cousins to visit recently, and that is the sort of thing they ask.) So try to just learn something as a general rule...i.e. in Italian, "until" is expressed as "finchè non"...and so on.
Can it be: I wait while you don't find the dog (I know it is not a direct translation), but it helps me to understand that by the time the person finds the dog, you will not wait any longer, and not look for something found. ?
Iborrione: I put 'Io aspetto finche tu trovi il cane' and it was marked right, so assume you can say it like this.
Is it also correct, if we say it like this, "Ti aspetto finché non trovi il cane"?
Grazie mille per le vostre risposte.
It is correct and, let me add, it is very correct. The use of the pronomi atoni is not very easy to grab and you seem to have mastered it :-)
Having been over this again, and not having looked at this particular lesson for weeks, I now find that I got it wrong and put 'il carne' instead as that is what I heard. How can we differentiate the sound of 'cane' and 'carne', as this sentence would have vaguely made sense even with 'meat'? Thank you for any tips.
My italian teacher cries with laughter at my attempt to pronounce some words with double consonants. I simply cannot HEAR the difference when she says the words! ...and of course the meaning changes!
As a Brit I would pronounce "cane" and "carne" the same, but living in America has modified that, but we are of course talking about speaking English. My impression is that native Italians do not accentuate the "r" in a word like "carne" as much as an American would in "carnival" but I would be interested in a native Italian speaker's comments.
I'm not Italian, but British like you, but as a Spanish speaker I would make a difference (and hope it is right in Italian):
"cane" doesn't involve the tongue (well, of course it does, but you're not really aware of it)
"carne" - is like you're Scottish, rolling or trilling the 'r' a bit.
It has been explained several times in previous comments. Please read the comments before submitting one that has already been answered. This helps you get answers to your questions, keeps the number of comments to a manageable number and shows some respect to the people who spend their time trying to help users learn Italian :-)
Para quien habla español, esto es bastante útil. http://www.curso-de-italiano.de/gramatica/capitulo16/16_5_3_finche_fin_quando_parte1.htm
What's up with the subjunctives in this lesson? I don't recall them being introduced yet...
There is no subjunctive in this sentence.
io aspetto = present indicative.
(tu) trovi = present indicative.
Finché is followed by the indicative so trovi is not one of the singular subjects of trovare in the subjunctive but the 2nd person singular indicative.
Is it usual in Italian for this phrase to be in present tense? In English it would always be future: I will wait . . .
'non trovi' = don't find
How about "I'll wait until you DON'T find the dog" meaning "I'll wait until you've looked long enough for the dog, you haven't found it, and you decide to give up and leave.
I am not sure I understand the meaning of this sentence. Could be "[...] until the dog won't be found"? I am puzzled because yourself needed to explain the meaning of your sentence, so I guess in Italian you would say: "Aspetto finchè non troverai più il cane" or "aspetto finché non riuscirai più a trovare il cane" but it will require further explanation.
Più here marks that the action stops or is no more.
Please hover over the words above and you'll find that the "non" in "finché......non" does NOT mean only "not", it can mean "until". With "until" you get a very logical sentence. And before you ask a question or propose a solution do read the comments above where you'll find lots of interesting information
Jaye16: Waiting until someone doesn't find something is just as logical a scenario as waiting until someone does find it. My question, after reading all of the previous comments, as you suggest, wasn't to take exception to the correct translation or somehow challenge it, it was asked to try to find out how one would in fact say what I'd written, namely "I'll wait until you DON'T find the dog". No one's answered that question.
Then I most certainly owe you an apology. I hope that after reading the many posts and all the hoopla over that "non" in the sentence my thoughts went to: "Oh, no not again." I need to learn to read more carefully.
jaye16: Thanks, I appreciate it. This sentence has generated more comments than any other I believe. And I'm grateful for all the time you and others have taken to help me understand how the phrase is being used.
Yes, it seems to be some sort of record and it's been around a year. Best wishes for great language learning progress.
what is "non" doing in this sentence? doesn't this mean "I wait until you don't find the dog"?
In this particular sentence non is being combined with Finche to mean 'until'. Have a look at Muttley71's explanation and examples in response to sambarown's query 4 years ago and the other helpful comments from Muttley71 and Jaye16 and others regarding this same query - they helped me to understand, accept and move forward :-)
i dont understand the 'non' in this sentence. Why do they use non in this one?
I am leaving this language site and recommending my friends/family do not sign up because of error.
Why does it say "non trovi" if the english translation is trovi, you do find the dog?
Io aspetto finché non trovi il cane--- Why do you write the negative sentence in Italian and you do not accpet the negative translation in English?. Don't you think it will be better if you write IO ASPPETO FINCHÉ TROVI IL CANE?
As you'll see from the many comments above the Italian is correct and the English is correct. The two languages have different means of expressing things. If you had read the other comments you would have noted that the Italian is not negative.
It's really a good idea to always read the comments they contain a lot of information.
Also see these sites for assistance: http://duolingo.wikia.com/wiki/Frequently_asked_questions http://duolingo.wikia.com/wiki/Duolingo_Wiki#Getting_Help
Thanks for your answer but the differences between 'finché' and 'finche non' were not written in the excercise and I lost a life. I think you should write an apropriate explanation before anyone writes a comment without reading the comments above.
I think you are missing the point here. The aim of Duolingo is to teach a language (Italian, in this case). The hearts and lingots thingy is a way to make the learning process funnier, not the main point. If you lose a heart, well, you just repeat the exercise/training and you get it right. No kitten is ever harmed for a missed heart :-)
I think the person is missing the point here, is you. I do know that losing a hart it's not important, the fact here is that I lost it for something that duolinguo doesn't explain/teach very well or considers as well known when it never taught to the learners in previous lessons. Thank you for advice. Are you the owner of this webpage?. If you are just a student, I think it's better to write comments for improving the teaching, not for perpetuating the mistakes of design of this great project, which generates confusion instead of learning. As you said, the aim of Duolingo is to teach, not to confuse.
Let's not get personal :-)
I m sure that now you will remember this Italian structure that differs from the English one. For that matter, Duolingo's mission is accomplished :-)
Learning a language on Duolingo is not the same as with the traditional method with grammar books. It's rather a matter of trying and learning by repetition. The earlier one realizes that, the better.
In addition to all Muttley 71 said, which I agree with totally, I got the explanation for "finché....non" = until, as long as, while by hovering over the Italian at the top of this page. If you don't know about this treasure of information you'll be glad to see it. However, sometimes it's not accurate but most of the time it's truly a help. And to repeat Muttley71's great advice, stop worrying about the hearts everyone, even long time users lose hearts. Repetition is the key to learning.
Read my post to Muttley71. I think it will help you to understand my point of view. Thanks.
I was trying to help, as was Muttley71. Since you refuse my help and continue to be impolite I shall leave you to your own resources.