"Io aspetto finché non trovi il cane."
Translation:I wait until you find the dog.
186 CommentsThis discussion is locked.
I'd to think of this as finchè meaning "as long as": so, "io aspetto finchè non trovi il cane" translates roughly as "i (will) wait as long as you don't find the dog", which basically means "I wait until you find the dog". Am I right?
Finché means 'as long as'. Ex. Finché c'è il sole, sono felice ('As long as the sun shines, I am happy').
Finché non means 'until'. Ex. Ti ho aspettato finché non ha cominciato a piovere ('I waited for you until it started raining')
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If you think about it, the english word 'until' has the 'non' built into it - 'un', which means 'not' in english... we have such a wonderfully mashed up language.
Okay but they have a word for until which should negate the need for non. Yes I know. Accept it as it is.
Actually,
If I'm not mistaken, in Italian and many languages, many words such as "until" are implied rather than used directly. Also in Italian, we have what is known as a double negative. That is why we use non.
[QUESTION]
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Would you mind to explain us about what term "c'è" is?
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What is "raingin"? I have searched for it in my English dictionary, but I don't find such word at all.
Grazie mille
It's not "raingin," it's "raining." That's why you couldn't find it in the dictionary :)
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OOOH, that is a better explanation. Until is in this case not the right translation, because Until refers to a definite moment, while As long as refers to an indefinite time.
Thank you!!! I couldn't figure this one out, it didnt make any sense! But your explanation was perfect, thank you so much!!!
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Thanks! This makes perfect sense! I avoid direct translations of other languages to my mother tongue (greek) in order to learn them, I think it's detrimental for the learning process, but sentences need to make sense in italian, otherwise they won't stick in my mind! That helps a lot :)
No. How can 'don't find the dog' and' find the dog' be the same? One is a negative?
The 'non' belongs to finchè: the phrase "finchè non" meaning until. It does not belong to 'trovi'. You just have to remember finchè and non go together, in this case non does not form a negative with the verb.
Thank you , this sort of makes sense, I just have to follow common usage, as in many languages.
would be nice if duolingo gave us a small grammar lecture about these kind of words, with uses and exceptions, instead of throwing it at us and causing confusing, while we have to ask help from other members or scower the internet.
I think it's fine for free language learning. Things like this I'd rather look up on my own or ask others about. It would be too much information if they over-explained things.
I agree. In addition to begin free, with all of its problems, the approach this app takes is proving to be extremely effective for me. There are many alternate online resources at one's fingertips to balance the help here. Taking the trouble to use those resources are a great support out to the learning experience in total.
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actually this is the way a child learns. No explanations just sounds. I THINK this might actually make us more able to use Italian than the more typical lengthy explanations that require you to translate each word and phrase.
I agree an explanation in the discussion area by someone actually involved in making the Italian tree would mean those who go looking for more information are getting the right explanation. It is dishearting sometimes when people trying to help contridict each other.
in my opinion this should be translated as: "i wait until you do not find the dog" because of non. could somebody explain this?
@Tim1988 When you hover you get : finché.. non =until, as long as,while. So, the non is part of the expression. It's not translated as not.
from chris123456 about: "No, non finché non lo apri." Translation: No, not until you open it.:
In this sentence only one "non" is causing the negation. In some circumstances " non" doesn't negate things. This is a particularly tricky sentence because it has both types!! The clue is the word "finché" so approach with great caution!!
There are two ways to use "finché and you need to decide which is being used. Either "until the moment that" or "for all the time that." In the former case the use of " non" can be optional and does not change the meaning as in the above case. In the latter use the meaning is changed.
The apparently additional use of "non" is called pleonastic so you may wish to try googling that word or there is more info here: http://onlineitalianclub.com/free-italian-exercises-and-resources/italian-grammar/finche-finche-non/ Hope this helps :)
Interesting, in my mother tongue we always use this kind of pleonastic denial (literally, "ne"), regardless of the meaning as in Italian. It is also a common mistake we make when speaking English. Hint: this is one of the ways to spot a Southern Slav who hasn't polished his English yet. :)
It's not that pleonastic, though: double negation was once standard English (well, early modern one) and finchè as one may deduct from (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/italian-english/finché) functions as until only with the "postpositive" non (in fact it derives from fin+ché), otherwise it is closer to all the way up to (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/finché)
So how do you say in Italian, " I'll wait until you don't find it?" For example (and had to rack my brains for this!), 1 child to another - "You'll never find my fav toy, I've hidden it." "Yes i will", "No you won't, to prove it I'm going to wait [here] until you don't find it and give up"...
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not italian, so I'm just inferring from an older post I've seen below: "io aspetto fino a quando non gli trovi." seems to be the way to solve these "wait until [negative] .. " situations.
Thanks for the explanation. It seems so illogical to me and I guess I'll just have to take it as is
I know what you mean in my country we do quite the same... Thing is "i wait until you don't find the dog " and "i wait untik you find the dog" has the same logical meaning in English...
Rather beautiful how Italian encourages patience and non-perfectionism by saying literally "I'll wait as long as you don't find the dog" for " I'll wait until you find the dog." Really like it!! :)))
How good to hear someone look on the bright side. Too many people are stuck in the rut of the familiar that anything new engenders complaints. Your post was a breath of fresh air.
One of my reasons for learning Italian is that I'm interested in how learning can change the way we think. This sentence seemed a good example of how a new language can give us a new way of looking at the world and thinking differently about life. :))
You're off to a good start. Every language has a whole nation and heritage behind it. Yes, this was one of the more "unusual" examples and I'm sure you'll find a lot more windows on the Italian world and enjoy learning, too. Good for you.
That's the spirit! I commend your will to try to understand how different cultures think! :-)
FINCHE NON seems to be used whenever there is use of a negative. eg. until i die ( as long as i have not died) AND until you have found the dog ( as long as you have not found the dog..
Just to make it clear: can i just say "io aspetto finché trovi il cane" without the "non"?
Is it just me or has the difficulty gotten far harder in this section? I had absolutely no trouble following this course untik now, and all of a sudden I find myself completely lost. How am I meant to understand how to translate these sentences? I don't recall being instructed on this grammar previously.
I agree it suddenly gets harder but all the effort of figuring it out help me to remember.
Hmmm. This must be the dog that eats salt. Probably looking for water lol!!
For those confused about "non", after reading on it, I think one question really comes to mind.
If "non" is used in a positive sentence, how do you create a negative sentence without a double negative? I.e. "I will wait until you don't do it"
Finché non - Positive Fino a quando - Negative
I will wait until you do it.
Aspetto finché non lo farai.
I will wait until you don't do it.
Aspetto fino a quando non lo farai.
Both contain negatives but for different reasons. These don't have "literal" translations as the grammar is different from English, but you can derive meaning from them as so.
I will wait as long as you don't do it.
Aspetto finché non lo farai.
I will wait for when you don't do it.
Aspetto fino a quando non lo farai.
Yes, thank you for the clear and concise answer. I and many others have answered this numerous times, so I'd encourage anyone before they post a question about using "non" refer to this answer.
Well, we say things like "I'm not going until you find the car keys", which to a non-native English speaker no doubt sounds like "I'm not going" etc. Every language has its idiosyncracies, and "finchè non" is one of the Italian ones. We tend to think our own language is quite simple, and since we are used to it, we don't think of the inherent difficulties....until someone says "Why in English is say like this?" (We have had several Italian cousins to visit recently, and that is the sort of thing they ask.) So try to just learn something as a general rule...i.e. in Italian, "until" is expressed as "finchè non"...and so on.
[QUESTION]
Is it also correct, if we say it like this, "Ti aspetto finché non trovi il cane"?
Grazie mille per le vostre risposte.
It is correct and, let me add, it is very correct. The use of the pronomi atoni is not very easy to grab and you seem to have mastered it :-)
Can it be: I wait while you don't find the dog (I know it is not a direct translation), but it helps me to understand that by the time the person finds the dog, you will not wait any longer, and not look for something found. ?
Is it usual in Italian for this phrase to be in present tense? In English it would always be future: I will wait . . .
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This would have been very confusing to me, but the Czech language works the same way. Instead of saying "until", they just say "while" (or as long as), and negate the verb.
So, instead of "until you find the dog", you say "while you don't find the dog", or you can think of it as "as long as you haven't found the dog".
Sure...We're looking and when you give up I'll give up. Hence, I'll wait UNTIL you give up. '
That's not the meaning of your sentence.
'Until you do not find the dog' means that the dog is here now, it's not missing and you will wait until the dog is missing.
You would need to mark the change somehow, like in aspetto finché non troverai più il cane. più shows that the action of trovare is finished, and therefore the dog is missing.
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not italian, but I infer from an older post in this thread that this should be solved with: "io aspetto fino a quando non trovi il cane."
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Iborrione: I put 'Io aspetto finche tu trovi il cane' and it was marked right, so assume you can say it like this.
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A point in English I seem to be unsure of is that: I'll and we'll can be rendered I will, we will or I shall, we shall when indicating the future. Yet DL does not accept I shall in this case. Anyone know why?
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Thanks Muttley, surely this does prove my point? Not worth the bother though, life's too short for shillyshallying and willynillying.
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Having been over this again, and not having looked at this particular lesson for weeks, I now find that I got it wrong and put 'il carne' instead as that is what I heard. How can we differentiate the sound of 'cane' and 'carne', as this sentence would have vaguely made sense even with 'meat'? Thank you for any tips.
My italian teacher cries with laughter at my attempt to pronounce some words with double consonants. I simply cannot HEAR the difference when she says the words! ...and of course the meaning changes!
As a Brit I would pronounce "cane" and "carne" the same, but living in America has modified that, but we are of course talking about speaking English. My impression is that native Italians do not accentuate the "r" in a word like "carne" as much as an American would in "carnival" but I would be interested in a native Italian speaker's comments.
I'm not Italian, but British like you, but as a Spanish speaker I would make a difference (and hope it is right in Italian):
"cane" doesn't involve the tongue (well, of course it does, but you're not really aware of it)
"carne" - is like you're Scottish, rolling or trilling the 'r' a bit.
It has been explained several times in previous comments. Please read the comments before submitting one that has already been answered. This helps you get answers to your questions, keeps the number of comments to a manageable number and shows some respect to the people who spend their time trying to help users learn Italian :-)
Para quien habla español, esto es bastante útil. http://www.curso-de-italiano.de/gramatica/capitulo16/16_5_3_finche_fin_quando_parte1.htm
Saludos!
What's up with the subjunctives in this lesson? I don't recall them being introduced yet...
There is no subjunctive in this sentence.
io aspetto = present indicative.
(tu) trovi = present indicative.
Finché is followed by the indicative so trovi is not one of the singular subjects of trovare in the subjunctive but the 2nd person singular indicative.
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This post is just for clarification - 'finche non' are used together to mean 'until', so don't associate the non with trovi i.e. hence the translation 'I'll wait until you find the dog'.
I think this distinction is far too complex for this level of learning.
The last question I translated without the "non", and this one with the "non", but both translated into "I wait until you find the dog". What is the difference between adding the "non" and not adding it?
it would be helpful if duolingo explained difference between FINCHE and FINCHE NON in TIP section
Shouldn't it say I'll wait until you find the dog? 'I wait' just doesn't fit together.
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Why Non, meaning that I will until you haven't found the dog. But I want that you find my dog.
so finche is roughly forever, but 'finche non' puts a limit on forever, forever's end, rather like I am going to wait forever, or not forever if you find the dog
"finchè" is not "forever" it means "till", "as long as" "forever"--->"per sempre"
for me as a russian speaker there is no mistake; everything is logical. In Russian we would say: "пока не" which literally means "finchè non"
Same here, easy for me. But I would not say it is illogical, because when I think about it there is more logic to that in English, as someone waits till he/she finds the dog, so the word "no" doesn't make much sense. I can understand the confusion English speakers have here. But you know, each language has its own rules and structures, we have to learn them.
Not everything will be logical in another language. I, too, had trouble with this sentence until I realized that it is "finche non" that is an adverbal phrase modifying "trovi" and is not read as "non trovi".
Yes, I agree with you that each language has its pros and cons. Well, when I started to study English, English "until" seemed very, very unnatural to me as well as single denials. I'm fluent in Turkish and they'd literally say "before you find".
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Didn't the exact previous example of this sentence not use the word non. I am so confused.
I was marked correctly but in fact i was wrong - i put 'io aspetto finche non trove il cane
Sometimes Duo allows small typos.
Kudos to you for spotting the issue yourself :-)
A native English person would say "I'll wait until you find the dog" but I guess we haven't tackled the future tense yet.
From what I understand finche non = until and finche = as long as. So it wouldnt make sense if it was finche on its own because it would be I will wait as long as you find the dog, adding a non doesn't necessarily create 'as long as you dont' because that wouldnt make sense, it instead as adds a finality to the 'as long as' -so when the 'as long as' ends i.e until.
It's not a glitch; it's been explained many times already. Please read the other comments.
The "non" throws me off. I've read the explanations, but it stills throws me off.
Technically you are close, but it is "...as long as you don't find the dog"
so at the very moment when you find the dog the waiting is over
and we can go or do whatever we were intended to do.
still sounds like 'i cane' so I have to guess if we are referring to more than one dog or not.
I listened to it several times and I can hear the 'l'.
However, in everyday life, it is common to "swallow" some letters when speaking: it happens in all languages. Think of "and" which is often reduced to just 'n'.
Regardless of this phenomenon, the noun is in its singular form: cane. The plural form is cani. An Italian speaker would have no issues separating the two sound (/e/ vs /i/) the same way that 'ship' and 'sheep' do not sound the same to an English speaker (Italians, however, would not be able to distinguish the two).
Why is it "non trove il cane" when he wants hou to find the dog? Isnt it written as a negative?
Let’s say you and your brother are taking your dog to a veterinarian.
But you can’t find the dog, so he has to wait while you are looking for your dog ( there is no sense to go to the vet without the dog, right?)
So, he waits as long as you can NOT find it (you do NOT find it / you are NOT finding the dog), but at the moment when you find the dog the waiting is over and now you can go to the vet.
Please read the comments, it’s been very well explained.
This video explains the use of finché:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfGnin29b-0
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As far as I know "finché (non)" can also be used with the conjunctive, so Duolingo should be kind enough not to reject the translation "I wait until I find the dog"!
But this would be wrong as
”trovi = (he/she) finds”
So it is 3rd singular person, not 1st singular person as in your translation.
This video explains the use of finché:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfGnin29b-0
This is not the verb aspettare (che) This is aspettare finché non and the use of the subjunctive (conjunctive) would be incorrect in this case. aspettare finché non requires the indicative mood.
aspetto che lui vada a casa (subjunctive) but aspetto finché lui non va (or andrà) a casa
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why are the current speakers so hard to understand? Previous speakers quite clear in their pronunciation.
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I agree, the new added voices seem not as clear (especially what sounds like an older man and a child), but I think it might be more realistic, since when I listen to shows, movies, etc, the speakers are not nearly as clear as the original DuoLingo voices, and I have a LOT of trouble understanding them. I think the addition of the new voices will be helpful in understanding more people in the real world.