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"They cannot start without us."

Translation:Ellos no pueden iniciar sin nosotros.

4 years ago

23 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/bby.gc
bby.gc
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When to use comenzar vs iniciar?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Pastafarianist

Something starts (comenzar). You initiate something (initiar).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Kai_Guy

I used comenzar and it was OK. I don't really understand the nuances of these three words, but this gringo's gut agrees with Mavry.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DanD_8
DanD_8
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Which pronouns go with prepositions? I guessed nos, but was wrong :).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jfGor
jfGor
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I assume you are talking about objects of the preposition. Only mí and ti are different from the subject pronouns. But, There are six special prepositions that are followed by subject pronouns rather than object pronouns.

Check out this tutorial : http://www.studyspanish.com/lessons/oppro.htm toward the end.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DanD_8
DanD_8
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Thank you. Since my post I had purchased a grammar book. I found that despite all of Duolingo's exercises I still needed to formally study them. I find it odd that Prepositional Object pronouns are closer to Subject pronouns than the Direct Object ones.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Linda_from_NJ

Why should you find it odd? Every language uses words differently even when their literal meanings are the same. Once I started to accept that I was doing the wrong thing by filtering Spanish sentences through English grammar rules, I found it easier to start thinking in Spanish. Now, when I find that something is different in Spanish, I think of it as a Spanish grammar rule that I need to learn so that I can apply it in other sentences. For example, "tener" and "hacer" both mean "to have" in English, but "tener" is best thought of as the "to possess" meaning, while "hacer" is best remembered as the "to have" that is used as a helping verb. It took me forever to get this distinction, but when I did, I made a tremendous jump in my attempts to think in Spanish.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DanD_8
DanD_8
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I should find it odd, based on what the pronouns started as in Latin. In Latin prepositional objects use a form that looks either like the direct or indirect object form. These object forms as looked more like each other than they did the subject forms. I find these little changes odd and fascinating.

Haber and tener came from habere and tenere in Latin, and were pretty much synonymous. Each of the Romance languages developed compound tenses differently. Italian kept using its 'habere' verb as have and helping, Spanish used its 'habere' as a helping verb only. Portuguese used its 'habere' only for helping verb, but sometimes used its 'tenere' for a helping verb too.

All of these things are odd, and strangely fulfilling to learn.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Linda_from_NJ

I was responding to what I thought was an "Ah Ha!" moment for you. My intention was to write about my own experience of finally understanding that what works in one language doesn't always work in another. For me, that moment was when I discovered when to use "tener" and when to use "haber." I wrote for people like me who, without the benefit of knowing Latin, have to figure out Spanish syntax and colloquialisms.

Thank you for all the interesting information about how Romance languages evolved. I, myself, find the study of language and its origins unequivocally fulfilling. Reading between the lines of your reply that starts with "I should find it odd... ,"I feel as though I may have inadvertently offended you by the colloquial way that i used "odd." If I did, please accept my sincere apology.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MelissaMil981126

Do you mean "haber"?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jfGor
jfGor
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Yes she does apparently but I pointed it out but she did not respond back or do an edit.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Linda_from_NJ

Yes, I did. Thank you for pointing it out.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/WhitePat

Why not empezar?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/wazzie
wazzie
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"No pueden empezar sin nosotros" is correct and accepted 22Feb15

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/WRSM15

I used commencer = to start, but it was not accepted. Is there a fine difference between the words?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/linburnlane

Probably just because of the misspelling of commencer instead of comenzar.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jvaughn0991

Why doesnt, "no pueden iniciar sin nos" work here?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jfGor
jfGor
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Hi vaughn0991, your question comes up a lot, even in this discussion. 'Sin' is a preposition so it must be followed by an object of the preposition pronoun and nos is not an object of the proposition. Nosotros is. "nos' does mean us or to us and sometimes for us, so it is an indirect object pronoun or a direct object pronoun.

Check out this tutorial : http://www.studyspanish.com/lessons/oppro.htm toward the end.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/linburnlane

"Nos' is only used as a indirect or direct object.

Gracias por ayudarnos- Thank you for helping us. (where nos is a direct object)

Ella nos dio una carta- She gave us a letter / She gave a letter to us. (where nos is an indirect object.)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/alezzzix
alezzzix
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The Duolingo translation is wrong, you cannot use iniciar that way. The correct sentence would be "No pueden iniciarse sin nos", but that would have a different meaning. Also nos is not used like that in everyday speech, only royalty would use the form nos without adding otros or otras at the end.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jvaughn0991

Thank you :-)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ThomasSwan8

Wouldn't it be "nosotras" here?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tif415336

I don't understand why it is nosotras when the sentence starts with ellos, so assume it is would be nosotros

3 months ago