Mar Plateado Spanish Immersion Team (August 16-September 30, 2014 session)
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This replaces the discussion for the previous session
WHO WE ARE
The Mar Plateado Spanish Immersion Team is an informal group of native-English (or nearly so) speakers who use the “Immersion” mechanism of Duolingo.com to support our study of Spanish. We believe that serious students should work with entire documents, not just isolated sentences, and we work together to produce complete translations. Any serious student who shares these goals is welcome to join us. To join, just introduce yourself and pick a document to work on. Happy translating!
ACTIVE ARTICLES (Translated and need checking; limited to one per sponsor):
- Bañares (gamesmasterg9)
- “Defensa de las mujeres”: el conformismo obligado de Feijoo en la España del siglo XVIII (Markmcopc)
- Steve Jobs (Luyematsu)
- Catedral de Santa María de Palma de Mallorca (mommarigo)
- Sintaxis (Magalie48)
- Genocidio armenio (robingeri)
READY ARTICLES (Overflow from Active section)
- Infante de España (mommarigo)
IN-PROGRESS ARTICLES (Translation incomplete and help is welcome)
- Nuestra Señora del Prado [Ciudad Real] (mommarigo)
- Independencia de Chile (Magalie48)
- Sistema educativo de México (rstimac)
COMPLETED ARTICLES (signed off by sponsor)
Now we just need to make it clearer to people that we're open to people who are learning; we don't punish people for mistakes, and making mistakes is the only way to learn.
Hi Greg. Could you please add Magalie48's article that's at the tail end of the prvious thread? Thanks!
Could I have "Catedral de Santa María de Palma de Mallorca" added to the ready list, please? Thanks for taking charge, Greg!
I did some major reformatting to make the page more inviting. Feedback warmly welcomed!
I get very frustrated each time a translation on which I have worked hard is 'corrected' for the worse. I think there are too many DL translators on Immersion who do not master English well enough to translate into it. Is there really nothing which can be done about this problem?
I will usually downvote any edits that caused a translation to cease to be English. Then I revert the change using copy/paste (so I can leave a comment) and I say "Downvoted and reverted. The previous change was broken English." Or something to that effect. That said, I have very rarely had to do this.
As a general rule, I don't think non-native English speakers (or at least, those below C2) should ever edit anything in Immersion. Native speakers of the source language (Spanish, for us) should be welcome to do the original translations, with a comment like "native speaker" to let us know they'd value feedback on their English.
Some of us have reported trying to participate in "reverse immersion" (that is, translating from English). The other languages are apparently quite fierce about driving non-native speakers away. Even if you don't make edits, you can expect to get so many downvotes that you'll never get to tier 2.
Thanks for your reply. It is really a pity that 'other languages are driving non-native speakers away.' Everybody should get an opportunity to learn foreign languages, so I think this "reverse immersion" is a very good idea. Native Spanish speakers who do not master English well enough can translate into their mother tongue, which is the ideal situation. Unless you are bilingual or a polyglot...
The ideal situation would be, every user translates the best that they can; every user translates or rates every sentence of the article; every user picks the best translation of the existing ones; nobody cares whether their translation is the one that ends up on top.
The ideal situation would be: a Spanish user trying to learn English tries his best to translate into English getting help from Duobot, dictionaries, the article discussion tab and every other resource. Every English user reads and follows every line of the article and interacts on the discussion tab, helping the Spanish user to see mistakes, showing the difference between good and better choices.
Ideally, everyone upvotes the Spanish user when correct, corrects what is wrong, and improves as able. Everyone is asking for help and defending the choices on the discussion tab. Nobody cares about being the top translation; everybody wants the best translation to be on top. When the Spanish user has the best translation, everybody who helped make that happen has won the game.
In the ideal situation the Spanish user's corrections are cheerfully offered and accepted, and reversions of the Spanish user's edits are cheerfully explained and accepted. This is ideal, because communication and learning new things is what makes language learning fun; and because, one's own lack of diligence, and the snobbery and the impatience of other people are the reasons that most people quit trying.
But it is precisely these reverse-immersion people whom you are complaining about. They're the ones who don't know English well enough and who end up "correcting" your translations for the worse. When we go to their immersion pages, they don't like us either.
That's why I use lang-8.com for writing practice. Duolingo just isn't set up for it.
It isn't set up for learning to speak another language only because people punish one another for doing it. Duolingo is uninviting to people who are trying to learn to speak in another language, because the users are unwelcoming to them.
So, Duolingo will remain a place for practicing your own language. Until people stop punishing those who are trying to learn another language, that's all it will really be good for.
I have a mixed view on this. The most obvious is that if translations are to be of a high quality you really should only be translating from your target language and into your native language or languages in which you are overwhelmingly fluent. That said I don't punish people for mistakes, I only downvote people who "correct" other people's good work with worse translations than the originals.
It's really beyond annoying to translate "the sack of Rome" and have someone come and correct your translation to "the plunder of Rome" AND down vote you!!!
Hola! Lisa (Luyematsu) mentioned your group and I would like to join! Have been studying spanish for nearly 3y. Gracias!
Thanks for stopping by. Did you want to sponsor that Armenian genocide article you've been working on? If so, just post the link so Greg can add it to the In Progress list.
Actually the link to the article in Duolingo is what we need. https://www.duolingo.com/translation/6e903faa879b812f727e9f6b148610c1
Greg--can you put this in In Progress for Robin please? Thx!
Can anyone take a pass through Santa Maria de Mallorca? It's almost done. And Greg, could you add Infante de España, https://www.duolingo.com/translation/93f02bea4b84f056d3784c924c3625ab, to the Ready section? thank you!
Well, I think I've got about 20% of it left to do, but I have to switch to French now. With three languages to juggle, I'm only dong two hours/week of immersion in each one, so that slows me down. Plus an old friend called to say he just lost his job and wanted advice . . .
No problem! I noticed that you've been doing a lot in the other languages lately. Poor guy, I hope it turns out okay for him.
Tried to post this, but didn't seem to go thru, sending again.. I see that as I review my selected article, there are "translators" and that deserves to be in quotes, because they are directly lifting the proofread section and placing into the translated section. It never occurred to me to do that, because for me, that's how I am learning the language - the struggle of putting it into a sentence that makes sense while accumulating new vocabulary. I had seen a post about this and checked it out, and sure enough, that's what I am finding more and more, especially with the more advanced articles. Yeah, I would love to be in translation tier 900 but what have I learned? Hmmm, what to do!!
The proofread section is taken from the translations. The latest translation should always be the same as the proofread text. Or are you seeing something else?
Off topic: I just hit 300 days! Granted, that includes a couple of streak freezes and a few days of upvoting one sentence in immersion, but still! :) Now if Duolingo could create something as habit-forming for exercise, that would be great.
Sure. Do you have a document you're already working on? Or would you like to review one of the ones in the Active list above?
Hallo, Greg. Can you please add "Independencia de Chile" to the active articles? https://www.duolingo.com/#translation/9e73ad59c967555feb79bc6dba0b7f7a
The "Independencia de Chile" article seems to have some untranslated sentences.
"To join, just introduce yourself and pick a document to work on."
Things have been slow lately. I note that this session nominally expired a week ago, but I haven't tried to give it to anyone. We really need some ideas to perk things up and attract some new people, I think.
I joined a couple of weeks ago, I think, but later, I was not able to find the link to get the back to the group... Anyway, I just found you again and copy pasted the link. However all the translations seem to have been completed...
Really? I've been depressed that no one has reported a translation as complete yet in this session.
Are you looking at a different discussion? Nothing in the original post above shows as complete. The article about Chile even has some untranslated sentences if that's what you're looking for.
I've been working on this document: https://www.duolingo.com/translation/56abb6997709f83091fc95ab8acd9668
Hi Greg--I haven't been doing too much immersion lately, but I'll get back in the habit of doing so. I'm working on Palma de Mallorca now, but I'm ignoring the variations in name-translations so I don't get bogged down.
We need to hand the session over to someone soon--we're a week over. But before we do that, I want us to discuss what we want to say when we do it. It's a good time to get attention from new people. I'm thinking we should make it clear that we're targeting intermediate students--not advanced ones. People who want to give Immersion a try but might be a bit nervous. That we welcome things like Wikipedia articles precisely because they're easy for intermediates.
People can submit anything they're working on, of course, but if they think it's something really hard, they should warn people. We could also give people advice on how to make the best of Immersion. I could even write a blog post about it, if that would help. (E.g. buy a reference grammar. Always leave a comment. Use the document discussion area heavily.)
We could also discuss what (if any) policy we want on leeches and literalizers. Probably best not mentioned in a message intended to encourage people, of course.
Better would be to discuss if we want to invite non-English speakers. I can definitely see a role for Spanish speakers--especially if they have a way to identify themselves so we can make allowances. I still think people who speak neither English nor Spanish as natives have no place here, unless their English is C2, meaning they do not unwittingly generate nonsense English sentences.
So maybe change or add to "serious student"?
Let me sleep on this and see if I come up with anything.
The group was fun when it was busy. We used to complete one or two docs every day. Now we snooze through entire months, and I think it's lack of new blood. Somehow we created the impression that we were a very elite group, and when some members left, no one replaced them. Accordingly, when we post the new session, the text really needs to be inviting to new people.
I think there are at least three groups we want to target:
- Someone already working on a document who wants company.
- Someone ready to try Immersion who wants moral support.
- Someone who has uploaded a document and wants help with it.
We do not want
- People looking to vote each other up so they can get to the high tiers.
- People who want to play with the English rather than translate the Spanish.
- People who insist on very literal translations.
The common difference between the two sets: the ones we want are motivated by a desire to improve their Spanish. They are "serious students." The ones we do not want are people who have no interest in learning. They only want to play games.
As far as what to do about "problem" translators, my current thinking is ignore leeches, downvote vandals, and report bots. Someone who makes trivial fixes to punctuation should just be ignored--not upvoted. That breaks the idea of making the doc all green, but I think it can't be helped. Someone whose edits make a sentence worse should be downvoted, unless they left a decent comment. (Punishing honest errors is not what we're about.) Bot translations need to be downvoted and reported for abuse.
Anyway, those are my thoughts this morning. Are you willing to host the next session? Say in a week or two?
Yes, I can certainly host once we get the language hammered out. I agree about the people we do and do not want in the group.
I understand what you mean by "serious students," but we should find a less intimidating way of phrasing it.
Mauna Loa can be moved to completed (thanks especially Luyematsu and robingeri). :) Greg, I've decided that I am going to drop out from Mar Plateado, to let you know.
Hi mommarigo. I've done a complete pass through Palma de Mallorca. I left a few notes in the discussion tab and made a few changes.
Thanks! Thanks for the comments, too :)
Greg, could you move this one to complete?
I haven't seen any movement in the article I sponsored. It is ready for any of you to review. I re-checked it today and it's still waiting. Thanks!
I've done a pass of each active article, except "Defensa de las mujeres" (which is very hard). Banares is only a couple of sentences away from completion, so if someone could just take a pass at that, we should be able to move it to "Completed".
Hey guys, I reviewed some of the grey sentences in "Steve Jobs" and "Infante de España". I'll try to do more in the next few days.
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