I read somewhere you can continue this pattern by wishing 'God and Mary and St Patrick be with you' and possibly a second reply with God, Mary, St Patrick and St Brigid... (I don't know how long you can continue before you run out of saints.)
I really want this to be true :D. Does anyone know?
You could go a long, long, LONG time without running out of saints. There are way more saints recognized by the Catholic Church than there are days in the year to give them separate feasts. You would certainly run out of memory (or patience) before you would run out of saints, probably even if you just used the ones especially popular in and Ireland.
And even still there are countless saints who are not recognized by the Catholic Church, innumerably more than those recognized. After all, every soul in Heaven is a saint; precisely why we have an All Saint's Day.
There are actually two different days in the Catholic calendar - All Saints and All Souls. By no means every soul is a saint according to the Catholic Church, if I understand the teaching correctly.
Yes that is correct. But I only meant that All Saints Day (which also happens to be a holy day of obligation) celebrates all saints, known and unknown, in part to honor those saints which do not have a recognized feast day. All Souls Day is principally celebrated for the holy souls in Purgatory. And yes, but every soul in heaven is a saint though many are unknown.
Indeed. Days also known as All Hallows. Which then yields Halloween or All Hallows Eve. Both days are pasted over the autumn equinox traditionally representing the Celtic New Year, when the fabric of the universe was parted and spirits would freely roam between the worlds. The pre-christians worshipped a huge number of gods and most likely greetings would invoke their protection as in gods protect you etc. Curses of course would go the other way. The irish (and descendents like me) generally remain deeply spiritual
It's cool to see the teachings of the Catholic Church discussed on a Duolingo forum ;)
And you are correct!
Every person in heaven is a saint according to RC teaching. Not every soul. Since some are in hell and some are in purgatory. According to the RC.
The celts arent the only ones whom Celebrate the Day of the Veil. The Paganic religions also celebrate this day, and brought it over to the New World, and then Christianity assimilated the image into this modern f***ery we have now.
I had not known of Santa Muerte, but I guess it/he/she is recognized as Death personified as a saint according to Mexican tradition? This would not be considered a saint, or even an unrecognized saint, in the Catholic Faith, however, because "Death" is not nor ever was a human being. When I said "saints that are not recognized" I meant those who have passed from this Earth either sinless at their time of death (i.e. forgiven of their sins perhaps through the Sacrament of Reconciliation just before their death), attained sainthood through the purification of Purgatory, or became martyrs (died defending their belief in the Catholic Faith). But in some cases, especially the second circumstance I mentioned, it would be impossible to determine just which souls became saints (and are therefore unknown to us as it is left up to God's just judgement). These are the saints who are honored today (November 1st), along with all the those souls we do know to be saints.
Yes and no. Santa Muerte is a 'folk saint', i.e. an unrecognised saint by the church who nonetheless has a large local following (in fact, her cult has often been branded devil worship by the institutionalised Catholic church). Her followers very much see her as a person with a distinct character, with a uniquely Mexican and female identity. In fact, she is seen as much more 'one of the people' than the more abstract exalted 'official' saints - her followers tend to insist she likes a drink and is a heavy smoker (two very popular offerings at altars), and they're usually a bit more comfortable asking favours from her (particularly less, um, respectable favours) like bringing back a straying lover or protection from law enforcement for drugs shipments. Or just a job. There's also centuries-old local indigenous traditions of seeing Death as a person and deity, plus there is this sort of connection between Mexican national identity and representations of death (skeletons, etc) - not in a fearful but rather an intimate, non-threatening but ever-present way. Also what Egdir is saying below :). I'm by no means an expert (Feel free to correct me, mexicanos!) but i've a background in Latin American anthropology and I'm reading a book about it at the moment. It's an endlessly fascinating and complex subject :). #geek-out
Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. Santa Muerte was given what I call the "voodoo treatment", where someone takes a pagan deity (in this case, Aztec, I think), and combines it with an existing saint in the Catholic church (although I think Santa Muerte was just given special attention like a saint would get, rather than being merged with someone).
That's black magic... It belongs to a dangerous sect... It's not a religion. The followers are actually nuts. Sacrifices are made, blood of small animals running down kids' bodies and the like
No sacrifices at all. I mean, Mexico is a very diverse country. You find "santeros/yoruba" who practice the religion of african slaves that came to Mexico. Yes, the might kill hens but no babies. Worshipers of Santa Muerte are very diverse some might be criminals. some are just humble people form the barrio. Santa Muerte is kind of a new phenomenon compared to santeria or even native religions.
Im sorry, this is a learning app. NOT a bloody game, nobody is gonna like that and if your getting it for attention. Then its NOT working, please DO NOT talk about that. The comment section is for questions, NOT stuff like that! You can write that on a piece of paper.
That is what I was taught. Dia agus Muire agus Pádraig agus Bríd... and that's as far as I have gotten. I would love to know who's next - Peter? John? James?
Dia duit/ Dia is Muire duit/ Dia is Muire is Padráig duit/ Dia is Muire is Padráig is Naomh Bríd/ Dia is Muire is Padráid is Naomh Bríd is Naomh Eoin Baiste duit/ Dia is Muire is Padráid is Naomh Bríd is Naomh Eoin Baiste is Naomh Phroinsias duit/ Dia is Muire is Padriag is Naomh Bríd is Naomh Eoin Baiste is Naomh Phroinsias is Naomh Cholm Cille duit that's as far as back as I can remember, but you can keep going and going and going... the last one translates exactly to: "God, and Mary, and St Patrick, and St Brigid, and St John the Baptist, and St Francis, and St Columcille be with you." Hope that helps :)
I always was taught "Dia is Muire is Íosa (is Seosamh) duit." Which is adding Jesus and Joseph too!
Its true but before u say st.patrick be with you .you say joseph be with you
Yes this is true. Irish kids are taught this in school when they first start learning Irish.
Yes. I have another Irish - english course, where the greetings aren't distorted.
Can someone explain to me the phonology behind how the initial "d" in "duit" is coming off (to this American ear) as a very clear G sound, closer to the English "g" even than a Greek "gamma" sound? I know that broad and slender vowels are a huge determining factor but it seems to have the same effect either way coming off the broad "a" in "dia" as well as the slender "e" in Muire. I do not hear this "g" sound for the letter "D" in other Gaelic words; is this purely idiomatic?
In intervocalic positions in Irish, consonants frequently become palatalized or velarized depending upon the quality (front/back) of the flanking vowels. The 'd' of duit here is intervocalic: diA dUit; this is why we can see the d written with h sometimes, for example dia dhuit, the h indicating the change of pronunciation. In this particular case, the d is velarized as it is surrounded by back vowels. Velarized 'd' in Irish sounds like Greek γ (gamma).
So do you reckon I'm always safe using a gamma sound when I see the letter d surrounded by similar vowel sounds on both sides? I'm just trying to establish a baseline; not to mention I'm fascinated by these little linguistic minutiae. Much obliged to smrch & magrise for the in-depth info.
Only initial, 'broad' (i.e. followed by a, o or u) <dh> (and <gh>) have this gamma pronunciation. E.g. dhuit, mo dhoras, a gháirdín etc.
At school in Northern Ireland we learned Donegal Irish. For us "duit/dhuit" rhymed with the English words ditch and hitch and was pronounced gitch.
Thanks, Seamus. That was what I remembered hearing in Donegal, so I was confised by the pronunciation I heard here.
"Dia dhuit/dhaoibh" are common dialect variations of "Dia duit/daoibh". When broad the pronunciation is a voiced fricative (like Greek gamma). The pronunciation /g/ on the audio here is incorrect.
Both dia dhuit and dia duit are possible. There are two problems in this question:
The written form says "duit", but the voice is (trying) to say "dhuit".
The "duit" version should be pronounced with a /ɣ/ (a voiced velar fricative—a 'gh' sound), but she's just saying /g/. Maybe that form is possible in Ulster (not sure), but it would be better if she said it the more standard way (/ɣ/), and also if she read what was written instead of using a variant form.
A real gaelgeoir (Irish speaker) would have to explain this to you, but I have a vague recollection of reading it's something to do with 'd' changing in pronunciation before a slender vowel (e/é, i/í).
Disclaimer: this could all be nonsense. I would like to find out from someone who does know though.
Not sure on the exact linguistic details, as the other repliers supplied to you, but in school they just say that when a "h" is on a "d" word, the "dh" is pronounced like a G. "mh" can be pronounced like a "v" or a "w".
To be clear:
Broad 'dh' is like 'g' (more precisely, it's a fricative: ɣ)
Slender 'dh' is like 'y'
The "is" in "Dia is Muire duit" is actually a shortened version of "agus", right? If it is, it will make sense to me, otherwise it doesn't.
I thought the spelling was Dia Dhuit. Can somebody tell me if that spelling is correct?
I've double checked every textbook I've got, and it it always "Dia dhuit." That is what the speaker is saying, too.
Both should be acceptable. Must be something to do the C.O. Standard they're using. My kids schoolbooks all have "Dia Dhuit"
Irish is not the only language like this. Arabic has "Insha'Allah," and in Spanish and Italian (and Portuguese, etc.) Adios, Adieu mean literally "to god" - they've just been shortened. Holiday originally meant holy day . It is impossible to get away from religion in language due to historical impact. And although many people think it, good never meant god.
Oh yeah, Portuguese too, actually poeple here try avoid say "adeus" because it is a "goodbye (to never more)"... very very deep to use every day. But "adeus <=> a deus (to god)".
Adéu (often shortened to "déu") is used all the time in Catalan. Spanish speakers, on the other hand, usually refuse to use adiós because, as you said it happens in Portuguese, for them it sounds like a deep good-bye and they prefer to say "hasta luego". I guess we Catalan speakers are simple people.
Not really, sorry. It's one of those idioms that's lost its original meaning effectively.
I have been asking that same questions for years. I have even contacted the official body that overseas Scottish Gaelic (as Scots Gaelic speakers are overwhelmingly Protestant and so would not invoke Mary) to see if they had a non-Catholic alternative response. But they don't greet each other with Dia duit, so that turned out to be moot. The short answer is no - so far no one has come up with a widely accepted alternative to "Dia is Muire duit!"
Most certainly, I'd say. The pronunciation is near enough exactly the same as a Scot pronouncing the English ‘hello’ (whether it is EXACTLY the same depends on the speaker really).
What were the deities referenced in Ireland before Catholicism (before Romanic British invasions/migrations).. that may be a good place to start
That would be the celtic gods and goddesses, like Teutates, Cernunnos, Epona, Taranis, Ceridwen and so on. I have heard, that celtic pagans use "Na déithe leat / Déithe duit" instead, supposedly meaning "[May the] gods be with you" - Though that might not be something for everyone either.
I suppose it is possible to construct a sort of greeting, maybe using the word "haigh" in combination with "conas atá tú?", though that might be rather colloquial, and not suitable for formal greetings.
(personal opinion incoming): I just think there should be a way for people to speak an age old language without having to swallow the religion-pill and being told to "get over it".
In high german (commonly just called "german"), there are a lot of non-religious ways to greet one another, like "Guten Tag" (Good Day) or "Grüß dich!" (Greetings to you/ "I greet you"). This is what the majority of the german speaking population uses, no matter what they believe in. The more religious people may choose to say "Grüß Gott" ("Grüße dich gott" ---> "May god greet you", having almost the same meaning as "God be with you"), though that is mostly treated like "Dia duit" in Éire these days, having no heavy religious meaning anymore.
Interesting!! I would hope with this resurgence of Irish language learning due to Duolingo and other language apps we can repopularize greetings without Catholic/Christian connotations - because Catholic/Christian was not always the native religion of Ireland but it was imposed upon Ireland to purposefully forget old ways :/
I actually have done this, using the plural. I am genuinely uncomfortable with how internalized Catholicism is in Irish culture and language, but I see nothing constructive about making a big deal out of it. Honestly, most don't notice the plural form of dia, especially if you say it fast enough. I'm agnostic-ish with strong pagan leanings--I usually ID as agnostic among my fellow Americans but among my fellow Gaels, I'll ID as pagan, as they usually understand and don't freak out. As long as no one is accusing me of being into the "old gods" because of Game of Thrones, I'm good. ;)
Wow, I mean... isn’t this a little terrifying? To think that no one knows something as simple as how pre-Christian Irish folk said “Hello”? I suspect that the prior Irish greeting would have been similar, but referring to the Irish god(s/desses), not unlike how Irish monks started using Tuatha Dé to refer to the Israelites (People of God).
Total conjecture but I would sure love it if anyone has any more detail or a place to point me to find out more about my pre-Christian heritage =)
I just noticed Shiranaya’s response, and I am fascinated that the plural form (Na déithe leat) seems to be at least somewhat accepted as well. Very interesting!
It most definitely is religious - and for many unacceptably so - if you are a practising Protestant, Muslim or Jew.
"Dia" actually means God too, meaning we say "God to you" as a greeting here and "God and Mary to you" as the response to that greeting.
Is there a reason why "Hello to you as well" is not a valid translation for "Dia is Muire duit!"? In (American) English, "Hello to you too!" is a fairly informal way of returning a greeting. I'd say it to a child or a close friend, but not someone I didn't know well.
You can just click on "my answer should be accepted" or something like that, and the team can see it and add it as a valid answer. At least that's how it's done in other languages in duolingo. Unfortunately, you'll get those "mistakes" as it takes some time to perfect the course. It's your way to help the Irish course become better I guess.
Remember that this is a beta course, and many theoretically valid answers will be absent from the database. If you come across such an answer, click the report button, check the appropriate box, and submit; a course moderator will add your answer at his or her discretion.
Of course! I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't a grammatical/sentence structure reason why "as well" should not be used here.
What does this mean, a "beta course"? I saw this mentioned elsewhere but I couldn't find an explanation.
“Beta” here is used in the same meaning as is done with software testing — it means “largely, but not completely, ready for use as a finished product”.
I agree. I actually had no idea how to translate 'Dia is Muire duit' into real-sounding English, despite understanding what it means. I'd usually follow "Hello" up with another "hello" or something similar.
There are thousands of Irish saints. Some barely remembered anymore. Many forgotten to the sands of time. There's a book I have by Hubert Butler called "Ten Thousand Saints: A Study in Irish and European Origins" that deals with this.
Say Dia duit. Dia is Muire duit. One more time Duolingo. This is the 5th exercise fercrissakes
I'm not sure how, but somehow, a simple greeting phrase lead to an important religion forum!! >^<
The fact that the only available greetings are clearly understood as references to religious icons does make one wonder about the culture in which the language has been revived. How accepting are Irish speakers of people who hold different religious views and may not feel comfortable invoking the Catholic saints in greeting? How did the Irish greet each other before Catholicism?
They did, and you technically still can, invoke the weather and ask for the well being of the family
Or even just because it's a person's name. We capitalize all personal names, sacred or profane.
But interesting point. Living people are called 'Máire', but not 'Muire'.
But it only refers to the 'mother of God'. Real people are called 'Máire', never 'Muire'
How do I tell the difference between "Duit" and "Dhaoibh"? And how are they supposed to be pronounced?
They are pretty distinct, even across dialects. 'Duit' can be dit, wit, gwit, and probably some other pronunciations, and daoibh can be deeve, div, yeev, gweev, and probably some others. The 'dh' has a gutteral sound to it.
'duit' ends in a kind of t-sound
'daoibh' ends in a kind of v-sound.
("Kind of", because I don't want to get into the leathan and caol here)
I don't know about you guys, but I find the pronunciation a little hard to understand. Is "duit" supposed to sound like "guit"? Or is it just me?
So what did Gaelic speakers say before they were christian? God to you, and thore to you too?
dhuit is right, but really you have to sell hello to you too? that's not common.
It's a common call-and-response pattern, like saying "you're welcome" after "thank you".
It was a type what you hear for me so I wrote "dia duit, Dia's Muire duit"
I seem to remember that there is a contraction form and it was used in the books I have (used in some primary school classes)
i said it means god be with you and god and mary be with you and i was wrong???
You were literally correct, but the designers of the course are really just taking these expressions to mean "hello" and "hello to you too", and really, that's how Irish speakers are thinking of it as well.
As I understand, is a fun poke if someone STARTS with "Dia is Muire duit," to add the "Patrick." Why cannot the translation say "God with you, God and Mary with you"? That's what it actually means.
No, it means "Hello", like Icelandic "Blessadur" means "goodbye" even if the literal derivation is from "blessed".
Meaning is how people use the language to communicate, not necessarily the origin behind the words.
When we say "It's two o'clock", it doesn't mean "It is two of the clock", you're just referring to a specific time. Translating it into (say) French as "Il est deux de l'horloge" is not translating "what it actually means" because that's not what people think of when they say "two o'clock", nor the meaning they want to convey.
I do not understand your point about meaning here. The meaning of a word or phrase is not limited to the commonly understood meaning from a majority. It always ties back to origins, as well as the intent of the speaker, particularly in written form. When I hear "two o'clock", it means two of the clock, as opposed to some other count of time increment. Are you saying that most people are wholly unaware of the origin when they use these phrases, or that they should lose awareness? The words we use without thinking indicate something about our culture and something about ourselves. And I think some people remain aware, despite the possible masses who may use words thoughtlessly. Without awareness of the effect of the origin on a word's connotations, English speakers might still accept the word jew used as a verb to be a simple synonym for cleverly negotiate or cheat, rather than recognizing it for the ethnic slur that its origins make it.
I was advised on a previous exercise that simply "Hello. Hello." was accepted, but I see that it is not.
Primero me aparece como hi, hello to you too, ahora en este ejercicio lo pongo y me aparece que error que era hello, hello to you to
Okay guys. From reading the comments on this page, if you say "Dia duit!" it's different from "Dia daoibh" because with "Dia duit" is usually followed with something religious? Or am I just really confused and missed something?
ok so, for all of you non-native irish speakers, 'duit/dhuit' is most certainly NOT pronounced 'g-with-'......anywhere!! it should be 'g-witch'.
I find the pronouciation really different from the standard kerry pronouciation and different from my Ulster pronouciation. Strange
Is there a less religious way to say this? And I thought the Irish language came before Christianity, did they still say it this way?
Before christianity there were multiple gods and no one knows what they said because nothing was written down. Likely they said something like "may the gods be with you" the gods were in the earth the sky every plant and animal and stone.
ok, I like to use "funny English" when learning a language, and the program's insistence that "God and Mary with you" MUST be "translated" as "Hello to you too" is really annoying.
Is there a way to say "hello to you too" without the Muire? Im just wondering if the "Muire" is just traditionally how its said or if its a strictly Catholic greeting.
How can they change from god and mary to hello. We are here for to learn the proper irish version not some anglasized simplified version. Direct irish translation please !!!!!!!!!
So the voice that reads this to me pronounces "duit" like the english word "wheat". Is that correct at all?
The Irish were very competitive, I expect the number of saints would depend on how many people were being said Hello to, and giving individual replys as when entering a room with people in.
Why does DuoLingo not accept when I translate this sentence as: May God be with you. May God and Mary be with you!?
Thank you. I believe that I might have bean confused by 'maith', and since Duolingo doesn't correct me if I write 'muire' in stead of 'Muire' (at least in the early exercises) I have probably tricked my self into to believing that the word/name may sometimes be spelled with a small 'm'
Not really. It's an idiomatic phrase, and doesn't actually mean what the words are saying. It should only accept what the phrase actually means, since when you see or hear that phrase, you should immediately recognize that they're saying hello.
If someone asked for a translation of "kicked the bucket" in their own language, you wouldn't tell them the direct translation, you'd tell them it is a way to say someone died. You might add that it literally means "kicked the bucket," as well, but as an interesting aside rather than an actual translation.
I understand totally the concept behind it and idioms and all. I just think technically, it does indeed translate (literally) to that.
It never means 'God to you' (whatever that would mean). It entirely and unmistakeably means 'hello', and nothing else.
Are you're saying that if someone says 'dia duit' to you that you would take it as them blessing you, rather than a greeting?
But translation is not about translating literally. It's about translating meaning.
If you translated German "Das ist gehupft wie gesprungen" into English as "That's leaped as jumped", it might be a cute mnemonic but will be of little use to most speakers, who would be much better served with "That's six of one, half a dozen of the other".
The words do make a difference. Saying "kicked the bucket" is not a matter-of-fact translation of "died", but rather impolite and offensive to a significant percentage of people. Similarly, the words we use to greet a person indicate something, and in this case an acceptance of the religious entities as being important to the one we greet or to the culture. Otherwise, why use these words at all, when there are so many meaningful things we could say?
No, English must be "God with you" We don't always use the same prepositions. This is an idiom meaning "Hello!"
I wouldn't use "God be with you," either, because that would generally be used as a parting rather than a greeting. The only really acceptable translation here is "hello."
Morally and ethically, I have a very difficult time wishing any living being an evil sociopathic imaginary being upon them. Not to mention forcing anyone to spew some religiously based nonsense is also a problem for me.
I say all of those things. I am agnostic yet my irish parentage still has me saying god bless or thank god to irish elders. And i do indeed mean may YOUR god go with you as the late great Dave Alan used to say.
No one is asking you to judge them. Its just the current custom like adieu or adios or godspeed or god bless. Think of it as a wish for blessings on you by whatever you hold to be your god. The mary bit i accept is a bit rich and will not always be used. Right now its not a bad representation by the programmers. Lets move on.
your translation is an insult to Irish people. God be with you and God and Mary with you. and terms such as God bless the work are the traditional Christian greetings down through the centuries
i swear to god. it put mary's name in here. anD THEN WHEN YOU ACTUALLY PUT IT IN THERE IT CoUNTS it WRONg
This translation "Hello ! Hello to you too" is incorrect , Should be "God be with you ! God and Mary be with you (or to you)"
Your translation is incorrect. There is no word in the original corresponding to the "be" in your sentences.
(In order words, you seem to be trying to translate literally, but have realised that this does not work because English is not Irish, so you have tried to transform the resulting ungrammatical English into idiomatic English. But I believe you have not gone far enough in this converstion to "idiomatic English", by ignoring how the phrases are used in Irish.)
the correct translation is God be with you and God and Mary be with you. In northern Irish one says " ca dé mar ata tu." when addressing someone .Please be exact !!
No, The literal translation is "God be with you. God and Mary be with you". The correct translation is "Hello. Hello to you too/as well".
And I'm assuming you're referring to "cad é mar atá tú", which is a phase used for asking how someone is doing, and doesn't specifically mean "hello". But I agree with you that it can be commonly included in the greeting.
Some are complaining about literal translations but I find this a big impediment to learning a language if you are not advised or allowed use the literal translation.. Anybody learning a language can be thrown into great confusion as the words written or spoken do not translate or give any clue . In "Dhia is Mhuire duit " are the translated English words God and the name Mary" I am Irish and thats the greeting I hear, not "Hello" Duolingo should highlight where their translations are Idioms and not Literal. My translation is more correct than Duolingos so give me back my credit.