"Tá uisce ag an bportán."

Translation:The crab has water.

4 years ago

60 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Dust514
Dust514
  • 10
  • 7
  • 5
  • 3

And it's not afraid to use it.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NealFisher
NealFisher
  • 9
  • 7
  • 6
  • 5
  • 4
  • 3
  • 3
  • 3
  • 2
  • 2

This form threw me a bit - especially after reading the hints section and reading the prepositions like "ag an."

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/yannifan113

There is a hints section???!!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/czczczczcz
czczczczcz
  • 13
  • 9
  • 8
  • 7
  • 7
  • 6
  • 6
  • 6
  • 5
  • 3
  • 3
  • 3
  • 2
  • 2
  • 2

Only on the desktop site. :(

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ataltane
ataltane
  • 10
  • 9
  • 6
  • 5
  • 5
  • 5
  • 4
  • 3
  • 3

But you really have to read it.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
  • 25
  • 25
  • 22
  • 18
  • 16
  • 16
  • 13
  • 13
  • 12
  • 11
  • 11
  • 10
  • 10
  • 10
  • 9
  • 8
  • 8
  • 8
  • 7
  • 7
  • 7
  • 6
  • 5
  • 3
  • 3
  • 3
  • 3

And yet no one thought to give the link again: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/ga/Eclipsis

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/becky3086
becky3086
  • 20
  • 15
  • 9
  • 8
  • 5
  • 4

I read it too....have no idea whatsoever what it is talking about...and I never do. I read them every time too. Maybe if they used words we had already learned in the explanation but I still doubt I would understand.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/newjoe
newjoe
  • 25
  • 25
  • 8
  • 6
  • 3

A useful rhyme I leaned at school. Mary; Bakes; Pies (which) Never; Get; Cooked Now (a); Dreadful; Toothache Bothers her; Father N-AEIOU (he says)

MBP NGC NDT BhF N-AEIOU.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MeredithNa
MeredithNa
  • 25
  • 15
  • 15
  • 11
  • 6
  • 3
  • 1843

I'm slightly confused by this rhyme. Can you please explain it? Thanks!

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/17Smileyfaces

So when you pronounce eclipsed words you kind of swap the sound of the first letter for the new letter? I'm confused!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/talideon
talideon
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 23
  • 22
  • 20
  • 13

Yes. The reason why this is done is it mean that you can tell when reading the word what the word looks like without eclipsis, so 'bportán' is pronounced as if it's 'bortán' and you can tell that the original word is 'portán'. While initially confusing, it's actually a really useful feature of the orthography.

Here's more information about eclipsis: http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/eklipse.htm

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ataltane
ataltane
  • 10
  • 9
  • 6
  • 5
  • 5
  • 5
  • 4
  • 3
  • 3

...and in Welsh, they don't keep the original letter, but write the equivalent of 'ag an bórtán'

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/talideon
talideon
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 23
  • 22
  • 20
  • 13

Yup, which can get confusing under some circumstances. The way Irish does things looks weirder, but at least you still have the hint as to what the original word is.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dim-ond-dysgwr

Yes. In Welsh you have a "total eclipsis"; in Irish it's only partial (at least, to look at)!

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/grady777

bless you it all makes sense now

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ellagoalie

Is there supposed to be a "b" before "portán"? Thus threw me off a bit. Is it a typo?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sciatheric
2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PinkRose98

Can someone please explain what eclipsis is? Or share a link to an article? I don't quite understand it. Thank you! :-)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/talideon
talideon
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 23
  • 22
  • 20
  • 13

There are notes on it here: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/ga/Eclipsis

The gist is that when eclipsis is in effect, unvoiced sounds (f, p, t, c) become voiced (bh (v), b, d, g; which are written as 'bhf', 'bp', 'dt', 'gc' to preserve the original spelling), and voiced sounds (b, d, g) become nasalised (m, n, ng, but written mb, nd, ng to preserve the original spelling).

Now to dive deeper in to the sciencey bits.

As to why this happens, it's generally that the last letter in the previous word used to be a nasal sound, such as 'n', 'm' or 'ng'. When this final letter disappeared, it left its mark on the word that followed it.

You can see this most clearly if you look at the preposition 'i', which means 'in'. Historically, this was 'in'[1], just like in English, but the final nasal consonant was mostly lost over time (though it was preserved when 'i' comes in front of a word starting with a vowel), so whereas once you might've said 'in portach'[2] to say 'in a bog', now it's 'i bportach', as the nasal sound has been lost, but its echo is still seen in the eclipsis of the word that follows it.

As to why eclipsis is used with 'ag' as in 'ag an bportán', that's because technically 'pórtan' here is in the dative case (which you mostly don't have to worry about except with certain nouns as it's identical to the regular nominative case 99% of the time). The dative case is the case used with virtually all simple prepositions, including 'ag'. Where knowing this is important is with the 'an': while the nominative and dative 'an' mostly look alike in the modern language, in older versions of the language, they were different, and the dative 'an' triggers eclipsis[1].

To give you an example in English, once upon the time, the indefinite article was always 'an'[1]. If English had progressed the way that Irish did, then we would have 'a' and 'an' (before vowel sounds), but you'd write 'the cat' and 'a gat', 'the boy' and 'a moy', 'the goat' and 'a ngoat'. Much the same thing happened with the dative definite article in Irish, hence 'ag an bportán'.

[1] A simplification, but essentially true.

[2] This process happened over a millenium and a half ago, back in the 5th or 6th century, back in the Ancient Irish era, so it's likely you wouldn't have said 'in portach' but something not exactly dissimilar. I don't have an etymological dictionary to check what it actually might've been based off of the Old Irish spelling, unfortunately.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/eoin583226

Thank you.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/guupi
guupi
  • 14
  • 14
  • 13
  • 12
  • 12
  • 12
  • 11
  • 10
  • 8
  • 8
  • 7
  • 6
  • 6
  • 6
  • 4
  • 2
  • 2
  • 2

Agus tá portán i n-uisce. Does this mean "and the crab is in the water"? Or is it "Tá portán i an uisce" because of the definite article?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/heartosay

Before a vowel, "i" becomes "in", so "Agus tá portán in uisce" means "And a crab is in water".

"And the crab is in the water" would be "Agus tá AN portán SAN uisce".

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/guupi
guupi
  • 14
  • 14
  • 13
  • 12
  • 12
  • 12
  • 11
  • 10
  • 8
  • 8
  • 7
  • 6
  • 6
  • 6
  • 4
  • 2
  • 2
  • 2

Thank you :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nina462140
Nina462140
  • 20
  • 13
  • 11
  • 10
  • 6
  • 3

How is "ag" different than "aici/aige"?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ballygawley
Ballygawley
  • 23
  • 11
  • 10
  • 8
  • 6
  • 6

ag is the basic form used with nouns, e.g, ag an gcailín, ag an mbuaichall, ag an mbean, ag an bhfear.

aici/aige is combining "ag" = "to have" with the pronoun "she" --> she has and aige is with the pronoun "he" --> he has (this is explained in detail in a later section).

Quote:

In Irish most prepositions are usually written on their own, but when you use them together with a pronoun (me, you, he, she, it, us, them), the two words get contracted together to make what are known as prepositional pronouns

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/becky3086
becky3086
  • 20
  • 15
  • 9
  • 8
  • 5
  • 4

These sentences do not make sense to me. I can't get them because they don't make sense in English to me. :(

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/OliverCasserley

One month on, are they making anymore sense Becky?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/becky3086
becky3086
  • 20
  • 15
  • 9
  • 8
  • 5
  • 4

Well, not this one, lol, but yes, most of them are making more sense and frankly the ones that aren't I am trying not to worry about. I just move on now. My biggest problem now is trying to use enough of it to retain some of it.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/OliverCasserley

Here is a lingo for your perseverence. Ádh mór ort.- Good luck.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/becky3086
becky3086
  • 20
  • 15
  • 9
  • 8
  • 5
  • 4

Go raibh maith agat!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/oppikoppi
oppikoppi
  • 13
  • 13
  • 13
  • 13
  • 12
  • 10
  • 9
  • 7

is this the same as: Tá uisce portán aice ?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/heartosay

No, if you mean to say "Tá uisce phortán aige", that would translate as "He has the water of a crab".

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/guupi
guupi
  • 14
  • 14
  • 13
  • 12
  • 12
  • 12
  • 11
  • 10
  • 8
  • 8
  • 7
  • 6
  • 6
  • 6
  • 4
  • 2
  • 2
  • 2

Does this mean that lenition (portán -> phortán) is necessary to put a word into the genitive case? Does it always work like this?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lancet
Lancet
Mod
  • 12
  • 11
  • 10
  • 10
  • 8
  • 4
  • 3
  • 2

That particular topic is quite complicated; we will try to expand the notes in the Genitive Case skill to offer guidance.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/brigids.em
brigids.em
  • 14
  • 13
  • 7
  • 6
  • 4
  • 4

Thank you! I know it's likely a different team, but do you by any chance have any intel on whether the programmers plan to make those notes available for the mobile app? (Sorry if I'm the hundred-and-seventh person to ask!)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lancet
Lancet
Mod
  • 12
  • 11
  • 10
  • 10
  • 8
  • 4
  • 3
  • 2

No intel on this, I'm afraid. We'd love this to happen too!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
  • 25
  • 25
  • 22
  • 18
  • 16
  • 16
  • 13
  • 13
  • 12
  • 11
  • 11
  • 10
  • 10
  • 10
  • 9
  • 8
  • 8
  • 8
  • 7
  • 7
  • 7
  • 6
  • 5
  • 3
  • 3
  • 3
  • 3

Just scroll down at this link to the computer version page: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/ga/Eclipsis

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/heartosay

In this case, where "portán" is a masculine noun of the first declension, it would be lenited. But that, as Lancet said, is a very long story...

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nina462140
Nina462140
  • 20
  • 13
  • 11
  • 10
  • 6
  • 3

What about "Tá uisce aige an bportán"?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scilling
scilling
  • 25
  • 1538

That would mean “He/it has water the crab”, with an unnecessary eclipsis added for good measure.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/talideon
talideon
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 23
  • 22
  • 20
  • 13

'aige' mean 'at him'. If 'him' is the crab, then it has to come after the preposition, thus 'ag an bportán' - 'at the crab'.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/buachaill

If the conversation was about a crab who has water, you could say "Ta uisce aici/aige"

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LinguDemo
LinguDemo
  • 19
  • 14
  • 12
  • 12
  • 12
  • 7

Good Lord, the order's backwards from English. @_@

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/talideon
talideon
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 25
  • 23
  • 22
  • 20
  • 13

It might look like it, but it's not. The super literal translation of this (though keeping English word order) is 'There is water at the crab'. So the order isn't backwards (aside from the verb coming first in Irish, and that the verb 'bí', when used intransitively, is used to make existential statements), but that Irish doesn't have a direct equivalent of the English verb 'to have', and possession is instead done using the phrasal verb 'bí + ag'. Thus what is literally translated as 'there is water at the crab' actually means 'the crab has water'.

This might seem weird, but this exact construction actually occurs in a lot of the world's languages, Finnish and Russian being two European examples other than the Celtic languages. In fact, there are some interesting things to note about languages with 'have' and languages without 'have': http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/LING_a_00076

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/cgunning17

When do u use ag?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

There are many instances when you'd use ag. For instance, most cases of English 'at' would use it. Here, it's used because Irish has no verb for have. Instead, something is 'at' someone.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/nichwattsfsu
nichwattsfsu
  • 12
  • 11
  • 9
  • 6
  • 5
  • 5
  • 4
  • 3
  • 2
  • 2

How do these eclipsed consonants sound? Are they silent?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MollyHayes234

XD Tà uisce ag an bportàn

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/swordsman102002

the crab has whiskey.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BarryH10

Uisce beatha is whiskey in Irish :)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Felicia125253

Why is it "the crab has 'got' the water" but "the crab has the water" is not acceptable?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

There is no an before uisce, so it should be 'The crab has (got) water'. If either of those wasn't accepted, please report it.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Anna795979

Why does ag mean "has" with everything else, but it is "has got" here? I got it wrong the first time around because of the "got". Someone explain please?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

If it wasn't accepted as 'The crab has water', please report it.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/websmasha

Help me! I thought it was 'Water has the crab'

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

That would be Tá an portán ag uisce. The order is basically [Form of ] + [possessed item] + ag + [possessor]

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Losa721809

why not just say, Tá an portán uisce"? Is it not the same thing? The way it is written, it almost sounds like the water has the crab! How would you say, "the crab is in the water"? It seems it would be damn close to this sentence. I was doing great with this course, until this confusing chapter!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

Tá an portán uisce would be nonsensical. To say 'the crab is in the water' you'd say Tá an portán san uisce.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dim-ond-dysgwr

Dear duolingo,

"The crab's got water" is not wrong!

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zein537837

Uhhhhhhhhh im the sound

1 year ago
Learn Irish in just 5 minutes a day. For free.