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  5. "Il est aimé de ses hommes."

"Il est aimé de ses hommes."

Translation:He is liked by his men.

May 28, 2013

48 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bootsma

why is it sometimes "verb + par" and sometimes "verb + de" for the passive?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

This is just an alternative in this precise expression, but you can also say "par ses hommes".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zk89

There seems to be a pattern of using 'de' when the verb is an emotion - e.g. 'La fille est aimée de ses amis' - and of using 'par' for other verbs. Does this pattern actually exist or is it just coincidence? Many thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Apparently, yes, there is a pattern with appreciative verbs in the passive form, where the past participle has the status of an adjective with "de":

  • aimé par/de
  • détesté par/de
  • haï par/de
  • apprécié par/de
  • préféré par/de

There is no real difference in meaning, only rarely there would be a nuance: "par" would imply a more "active" feeling and "de" a more factual situation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/studyy
  • 1577

I liked the explanation in the last paragraph Sitesurf . Concise and " in a nutshell"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnaTall

ok, I must be missing something, are you saying , Prof Sitesurf that ' DE ' is used for ... less emotive statements than ' PAR'? And ZK9 suggested something quite opposite and got an ' Apparently, yes..' reply from you. Ou je suis simplement fatigue? ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Not to worry, Anna, it's just that some verbs can also use "de" as an alternative to the regular "par" in passive constructions.

Actually "aimé de ses hommes" has a softer, more elegant sound...

The "apparently" was about my ignorance of the reason why.

In the meantime, I have done my homework (source: WordReference):

"La préposition de apparaît aujourd'hui comme la forme marquée réservée aux cas où le complément introduit n'est pas interprété comme un véritable agent et où, corollairement, le sujet passif n'est pas effectivement affecté par le procès verbal : il s'agit essentiellement de verbes statifs dénotant des sentiments (aimer, estimer, admirer, toucher, etc.), des opérations intellectuelles (connaître, oublier, accepter, etc.) et des localisations (précéder, suivre, entourer, etc.)"

"Il n'y a point de règle précise pour l'emploi de l'une ou de l'autre préposition ; il n'y a que des nuances quelquefois sensibles, et qui d'autres fois se confondent. On se sert généralement de de, à l'exclusion de par, quand le nom n'a point d'article : Aimé de tous ceux qui le connaissent ; aimé de chacun ; cependant il n'y aurait pas de faute à dire aimé par chacun, par tous ceux qui le connaissent. Quand aimé n'est plus simplement participe, mais verbe passif, il faut par de préférence : Cette femme a été aimée par son cousin ; Louis XII fut aimé par ses sujets ; mais on dirait aussi sans faute : Fut aimé de ses sujets. Tout ce qu'on peut dire, c'est qu'aimé de porte plutôt l'idée sur aimé considéré comme adjectif et exprimant un état ; et aimé par, sur aimé considéré comme participe passif et exprimant une action reçue."

To make a long story short:

  • Verbs concerned: a number of stative verbs expressing feelings and intellectual process.
  • Feeling verbs' past participles can be considered as adjectives (+ de) when there is no real 'action' from the party experiencing the feeling.

How does it feel now? ;-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sally410

My head swam a bit, for a moment I misunderstood, but des hommes would have been required! Definitely time for me to get modern.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sally410

By the way, I backtracked and read your item. The question changed. How does it feel to be reading this, with just two or three 'shaky' words/phrases? Wonderful. Wonderful.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnaTall

do you or don't you pronounce the T in 'est' here?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

you have to liaise est every time it is followed by a vowel sound (or non aspired H).

yesterday, I worked on a lesson where the DuoRobotVoice did not: I had to report on every single sentence (which I have repeatedly done over the past months... unsuccessfully!)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnnaTall

thanks Sitesurf, thought so :) no exceptions to this rule whatsoever?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

What I meant is that it is the rule. Many French people just ignore it and deal with vowel sound conflicts without a problem. But it is soooooo inelegant!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ghaith415370

Sir please I want your explanation about someone who said in one of discussions that "duolingo is wasting your time" what can you tell me to about that because u have such a good experience in duolingo


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

I don't know that someone said that, but the only instance where I feel I am wasting my time is when I have to spend hours removing irrelevant comments on the forums. So, don't worry!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ghaith415370

Ooh.. thank you from the bottom of my heart really. You made me comfortable by these words


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

They have not been written yet...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ghaith415370

From the (passive voice) to the end of the tree the ( tips and notes) are not found ..what can you tell me about that?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ghaith415370

Can you give me a date to have them finished?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Unfortunately, I can't.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Decemberries

Can a sentence like this one contain an ambiguity with "ses": the possessive pronoun could refer to "il" within the same sentence or to someone else's (her) men?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Avistew

Yes, it could mean "He is loved by her men" or even "He is loved by his men" when they are another man's men. If you wanted to clear it up for sure, you could say "ses propres hommes" (his own men) but here, without context, the implication would be his own if not stated otherwise.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Only context would tell.

with "ses", "hommes" refer to his team, crew, battalion, ie people reporting to him.

with "ces", "hommes" would be about "men", nothing specific about them.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CJ.Dennis

If the sentence contained "ces hommes" would it still have "de"? Would it be a homophone?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WMG123

He is beloved of his men? :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/heniaith

J'ai entendu "seize hommes" au lieu de "ses hommes". Y a-t-il en principe une différence de prononciation entre les deux? Sinon, je crois que ma réponse devrait être acceptée. Cependant, il y a des distinctions assez subtiles entre les voyelles en français, qui n'existent pas en anglais, et je peux donc facilement croire qu'une telle distinction existe en ce cas. Pourrait quelqu'un à langue maternelle française répondre s.v.p.? Merci.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

ses (or ces) has a 'é' sound.

seize has a 'è' sound.

This is theory and they could be considered as homophones, due to variation in speech from one person to the other.

The trouble is that we cannot add "seize" to the list of accepted translations, for they have to match the original, written sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AstghikGab

How HE can be liked by HER men?? There is a mistake in the english version, should be HIS


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Actually if the meaning were "he is liked by her men", we would add something to avoid any confusion: "il est aimé par ses hommes à elle"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CJ.Dennis
  • Il - He
  • est - is
  • aimé - liked
  • de - by
  • ses - his or her
  • hommes - men

There is nothing that says that the (natural) gender of « ses » must match the gender of « Il ». Only the grammatical genders have to match, which they do. « Il » and « ses » could refer to the same person or to two different people, the same as in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ClassiDuo

I remember from previous lessons that "aimer," if it is directed at people instead of things, is "love," and that if "like" is intended, the adverbial "bien" is added. Here, there is no "bien," but the suggested translation is "liked" (though it did accept "loved" as a possible translation). Am I remembering the rule incorrectly? Or, is there some other reason for having "liked" as the suggested translation?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

If you assume that his men are probably not all in love with him, it is enough for "aimer" to mean "like".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ClassiDuo

Fair enough! Though I think that in English, to say you love someone, and to say that you are in love with someone, can be different things. The latter is almost always romantic/erotic, but the former is not. What would be the French way of unambiguously expressing the romantic/erotic type of loving someone?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Of course, context would most certainly clarify this issue of "aimer" representing a broad array of feeling nuances.

"je suis amoureux de XX" leaves no ambiguity as to the romantic/erotic type of feeling.

In this specific sentence, "aimer" means "like" but if we wanted to express that these men have deep respect/admiration for and trust in their boss, we would use "adorer" which would mean "love" with no romantic/erotic connotation.

Alternatively, we can use "aimer" with an adverb to give it the suitable nuance:

  • il est énormément aimé de/par ses hommes

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ClassiDuo

Thanks--much appreciated!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nicovander3

He is liked by Her men?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

In reality, the back translation would be "il est aimé de/par ses hommes à elle". So, it does not work.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CJ.Dennis

Je suis triste. J'ai pensé que ma réponse était bonne !


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CJ.Dennis

:-(.. .  .   .


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Please edit your previous post and I'll remove the rest... ;-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CJ.Dennis

Yes, an unlikely but perfect correct translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/StaFa_San

I am still confused


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lawlerfa

Why not "He is beloved by his men"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GraemeSarg

That would be "Il est adoré de ses hommes.".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sue919013

I am lucky as I wrote "il est aime de ce homme" (with accent) and it was marked correct?

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