"Thaitin an bia liom."

Translation:I enjoyed the food.

4 years ago

19 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Smith_Bill

I cannot even pretend to understand the discussion, here. I'll just have to be identifiable as a foreigner trying my best to speak such a language as this.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jillianimal

The last t in Thaitin is pronounced like an h =/

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/smrch
smrch
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The second 't' of 'taitin' is pronounced /h/ in some dialects.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/moloughl
moloughl
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Probably because taithnigh is a variation of taitin. One could also say Thaithnigh an bia liom although I don't know if this is used much anymore.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/deserttitan

I would have thought it was pronounced [hatchin]. Someone on youtube teaching Irish pronounced it that way when I was first learning.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/meistermonkey

That sounds like it may have been ulster dialect.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/balbhan
balbhan
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Stricty speaking, slender "t" isn't a "tch". It's more like a "ty".

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sean.mullen
sean.mullen
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According to the Irish Phonology Wikipedia page, slender d and t CAN be realized as [dzh] and [tch].

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/balbhan
balbhan
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Where? It says the usual pronunciation for slender d and t are /tʲ/ and /dʲ/. Some villages in the North-West have /tɕ/ and /dʑ/, but these are not the same as tch and j. They sound rather more like plain /t/ and /d/ than /tʃ/ and /dʒ/.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sean.mullen
sean.mullen
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Fair enough, Balbhan. Honestly, I do go through these lessons trying to get the pronunciation just right with things that are normally very difficult for native English speakers, like broad "gh/dh" which I know is /ɣ/, flapped "r", broad "ch" as /x/, etc. And I do make an effort to add a y-glide to slender consonants in words such as teach, where it feels more natural to do so. But it does make a LOT more sense phonetically to realize, e.g., slender "t" in áit and taitin as closer to /tɕ/ because of the ending on a consonant, and tongue placement required to make /ɪ/, respectively. But people are dumb and resistant to change, so living languages as reflections of people come with dumb rules and exceptions that don't make any logical sense. And, you have a point, that putting this in perspective, if I'm already making an effort in other pronunciations of Irish, I might as well make an effort in all of them!

Oh, while you're here, is the w-glide of broad consonants even widely spoken anymore? There's the obvious standard glide in Gaeilge, but other than that, I've heard no mention of it in Duolingo. Slender consonants are the only ones that seem to be emphasized.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sean.mullen
sean.mullen
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"The slender coronal stops /tʲ, dʲ/ may be realized as alveolo-palatal affricates [tɕ, dʑ] in a number of dialects, including Tourmakeady,[16] Erris,[17] and Teelin."

How picky of you! Yes, I know "tch" (tʃ) is a "voiceless palato-alveolar affricate" and not an "alveolo-palatal affricate", but who is honestly going to tell the difference in normal speech? No one. Teaching myself a new language is difficult as it is without having to worry about how far back to precisely hold the tip of my tongue. Will native speakers really be unable to understand me?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/balbhan
balbhan
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Well, my grandmother speaks that way, and I try to, but usually end up slipping and saying [w] instead of [ɰ] (the difference is not rounding the lips for [ɰ]). It makes sense to me to put it in if I pronounce duit and caoi as [dˠɰitʲ] and [kɰiː] rather than [dˠitʲ] and [kiː]. I can't really speak for how common that pronunciation is, but Wikipedia suggests it's usual for gaeilgeoirí. As a matter of fact, she doesn't even notice she does it, I guess like how many English speakers don't notice a difference between the "p" in "pair" [pʰ] and "spare" [p]. The only part of Ireland I've spent long periods of time in is Connemara, where I've also met some Munster speakers; I live in England, so I don't know about Irish in schools or media. I'd say to try and put it in, but I'm more concerned with ch, gh, and... er... t! Maybe you should hunt down a gaeilgeoir and see what they think. TBH, I think a language like Irish needs a whole skill for pronunciation ( vs. beo etc.), but I suppose they don't want to overwhelm people with dialect variation. I find the book/CD Teach Yourself: Complete Irish useful, but it's limited to Cois Fharraige (which is fine for my purposes).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/balbhan
balbhan
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Well no, I'm not being that picky. [tɕ] and [tʃ] don't sound that similar, and there are languages that do distinguish them. Irish is one of them: "an tSin" is [an tʃɪnʲ]. Yes, it is hard to learn a language, but this isn't a particularly difficult feature to get right, and getting it wrong is somewhat like a German saying "glass of vater" or an Italian thinking that "nit" and "neat" are homophones. They'd understand you, but you'd immediately stand out as not just a non-native (and yes, I know it's very difficult getting a native accent), but someone who was trying to shoehorn Irish into English phonology. If you are in fact aware that it isn't [tʃ], you don't really have much excuse not to make the distinction yourself. I'd pronounce broad t, d, n with my tongue pressed against my teeth, and slender t, d, n in the normal (for English) region (dental vs. alveolar). If you speak or know an English accent that pronounces "tune" as [tjuːn] or [tʲuːn], then using that sound would be a much better approximation of slender t than [tʃ].

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/andyroo93
andyroo93
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Would that sound like someone who has no teeth trying to pronounce /tʃ/ and /dʒ/?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sean.mullen
sean.mullen
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"[tɕ] and [tʃ] don't sound that similar, and there are languages that do distinguish them."

Yes, they do sound similar; they sound extremely similar. I know there are other languages that do distinguish them, but Mandarin Chinese is the only one I'm really familiar with, and there the two types of affricates are usually exaggerated and only followed by certain vowel sounds, so they're less similar. I've listened to the recordings on each Wikipedia page, and listened to the pronunciation of "taitin" on Forvo -- there is the most miniscule insignificant difference between the two sounds. Your comparison of this to a German confusing /w/ and /v/, or an Italian confusing "nit" and "neat" is NOTHING like confusing /tʃ/ and /tɕ/, and if you can't stand to admit that, then you're just being pedantic. Have you listened to Clisare, on Youtube? She's native-born Irish and her pronunciation of the language is almost as bad as this course's speaker!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/balbhan
balbhan
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I don't admit it because I don't hear them as being that similar. It's all very well not being able to pronounce a sound, but part of learning a language is at least putting the effort into improving pronunciation. Otherwise what's the point in taking care over grammar and spelling either? You shouldn't be surprised if someone corrects you when you transcribe a sound wrong, like thaitin as "hatchin". A better, but still imprecise transcription would be "hatyiny". To point to an unusual regional pronunciation that sounds similar to you does not let you off the hook: gaeilgeoirí will not think you're speaking like someone from Tourmakeady, they will think you're speaking with a thick English accent - certainly my grandmother in Connemara would think so. My point about tongue position is meant as a helpful guide, not something to worry you - you'd be surprised how quickly it comes naturally to you, and your tongue goes all over the place in English without a second thought. Slender t, d, n l, like English ones with a "y" (or at least, like plain English ones); broad ones pressed against your teeth (like "th" in Hiberno-English). [tʃ] is not the same as [tɕ], as both occur in North-West Ulster (an tSin?), and [tʃ] is not remotely like [tʲ], the usual pronunciation throughout the rest of Ireland. Being pedantic would be picking you up small things like leaving out a glide in gael: phonemically /geːl/, but generally realised [gɰeːl]. The rendition of the slender-broad distinction is a very basic feature of Irish. To not even try to get it right when you know better is simply not putting the effort in. It's like pronouncing g /ɣ/ or r /ɾ/ like an English "g" or "r". /ɣ/ is like the "g" in Spanish "plaga" (or similar to the French "r"). /ɾ/ is like the "t" in the American pronunciation of "butter". If you can see the importance of getting these right, you should see the importance of /tʲ/. Otherwise, I have nothing more to say.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JamesTWils
JamesTWils
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And, tragically, [h] as well. I wonder whether there is anywhere we might go to see a table of regional variations in pronunciation, like this.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/lostcarpark

I would have thought "liom" would make it "my food" rather than "the food". Could someone explain for me, please?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/moloughl
moloughl
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Taitin le means 'to please'.
In the Irish sentence 'the food' is the subject so the sentence says "The food pleased me".
Liom = le mé and it is specifying whom the food pleased.
Thaitin an bia liom = "The food pleased me" = "I enjoyed the food".

Another way to say that "I enjoyed the food" is
Bhain mé taitneamh as an mbia.

2 years ago
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