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  5. "Cé a itheann iasc?"

" a itheann iasc?"

Translation:Who eats fish?

October 13, 2014

26 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ClassyDuckling

Why the a? Can you just say, "Cé itheann iasc,"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/galaxyrocker

In Irish, the copula is implied with question words. Because it is still a copular structure, however, you need to make it a relative clause if you're using another verb, thus the relative particle a is needed.

Compare with Cé hé (who is he?) which doesn't have the second verb, and thus doesn't require a relative clause.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/galaxyrocker

an is the question particle and isn't used for creating relative clauses.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ZanninaMargariti

So this "a" is neither "an" from the question form nor "an" the article. It's something different? Confused


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/galaxyrocker

Yes, it's something for different. It's a relative clause marker. In Irish, this sentence is literally translated as 'Who is it that eats fish?' in Irish, questions involving question words require a relative clause for the most part.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alkimeer

What's the pronunciations of 'cá' and 'cé'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Drakynfly

Kah and kyay is how i would write them in english


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/19O492554

While the Ulster pronunciation of "cá" might be rendered "kah", it's not a very accurate rendition, and doesn't capture the "length" of the "a" sound accurately. "kah" is completely wrong for non-Ulster pronunciations of "cá" - http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/c%c3%a1

Even in Ulster Irish, "cé" not pronounced with a noticeably "slender c" - "kay" is a better rendition than "kyay". (It is technically a slender "c", but "ky" does not approximate that sound very well).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alkimeer

Go raibh math agat!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Drakynfly

I've always written /ɑː/ as 'ah' to separate it from /æː/ which I write as 'ae'. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As for the 'c' are you saying it is actually /kʲeː/ and not /ceː/, or just that it is not /kˠeː/?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/19O492554

Like most people, I don't know the ins and outs of IPA, which I presume is the reason that you wrote "kah" and "kyay" rather than IPA representations. Most people pronounce "kyay" in a way that is nothing like "cé" - "kay" is a closer representation of the sound of "cé", even though it is not strictly accurate either, but the "slenderness" of the "c" in "cé" is barely noticeable in ordinary speech, and someone who has to ask for pronunciation advice would not know that, and would be mislead by "kyay".

Similarly, "kah" might look like a reasonable representation of the Ulster pronunciation of "cá", but what you are actually hearing is an Ulster pronunciation of "kaw". The IPA engine at abair.ie renders them all as /kaː/ even though the actual delivery of that sound by someone with an Ulster accent will be noticeably different (How does that happen with the IPA? Beats me!).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Drakynfly

That is indeed odd. To my ears, the Ulster 'cá' is /kaː/ or /kæː/ while the Munster one is /kɑː/, and the Connacht is closer to /kɑ͡ʌ/.

Being someone who knows the IPA quite well, I learned to pronounce Irish with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Irish Now that I know the dialects can pronounce things quite differently, I will look elsewhere for accurate guide.

Thanks for your help!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/peanutandjelly41

Who is eating fish isn't accepted? Why not?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stegemue

I’d say because it says itheann (habitual form) and not ag ithe (progressive form). As far as I know that would be Cé atá ag ithe éisc?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NatalieDaley

I put "Who eats the fish?" Wouldn't this work as well?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/triadruid

no the in the sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jt223

Why isn't my sound link working on some of the questions, but works fine on most others. Is Duolingo placing the links up before they have uploaded the sound bites?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/19O492554

Most languages on Duolingo use a computerized text-to-speech speech synthesizer to read the exercises. The Irish course relies on audio recordings, and only about a quarter of the exercises have been recorded.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jt223

Thanks for answering this, I am glad they chose to record them as I don't think a computer could properly replicate the phrases. Hopefully it will continue to improve.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NancyAnn11

I wrote who does eat fish? I though a is do or does so included it. Why is it not correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/19O492554

The "a" in "cé a itheann iasc?" is more like "that" - "who is it that eats fish?"

While the negative form of "who eats fish?" is "who doesn't eat fish?", using "does" in "who does eat fish?" is not necessary, and it's presence makes the question very emphatic. Depending on the context, you might translate that emphasis with "cé hiad a itheann iasc?" or other contrasting forms.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RWWTaylor

One of the other items in this lesson asks for a translation of Céard a itheann madraí? and expects as an answer "What do dogs eat?". But if one were to parse the current sentence in parallel with this example one would get "Who do fish eat?". I tried this, and of course got the raspberry. But I'm still scratching my head over the underlying grammatical structure here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AllieC490376

Yes, this sentence structure bothered me too so I had to do a bit of research to check this! appears to indeed be ambiguous and can mean either "who" or "whom", and only the context OR extra information allows us to know what exactly is meant. I found examples with the meaning "whom" in Ó Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla: Cé a duirt tu? : Whom did you say? Cé a chonaic tu? : Whom did you see? In many verbs, the object of the verb is linked with a preposition, so Cé a labhair leat? is obviously "Who spoke to you?" and when is a question about the indirect object, the meaning is clear because it becomes cé leis, cé aige, cé faoi and then takes the indirect relative form of the verb: Eg. Cé leis a raibh ... : With/to whom was... I see some strategies for clarifying, like using Cé againn/ agaibh / acu "who/which of us /you / them and there are quite a few examples in Ó Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla. https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/c%C3%A9 But reading about the relative clause also helped because the question words in Irish are "invisible" copula sentences) AND relative clauses ! (https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/4529110) Also lots of clear examples at : http://www.scoilgaeilge.org/lessons/an_forainmn_coibhneasta.htm A look in Réchursa gramadai by Brian Mac Giolla Phádraig also said that in a sentence like Sin é an fear a bhuail Seán inné, it is not possible to say without extra information if Seán or an fear is the actor. To avoid confusion, other structures are used: Sin é an fear ar bhuail Seán inné é. Sin é an fear a mbuaileann Seán go minic é. So my deduction is that the corresponding questions would be : Cé hé an fear ar bhuail Seán inné é? Cé hé an fear a mbuaileann Seán go minic é? And that if you wanted to ask about human-eating fish, it would probably be something along the lines of Cé hiad na daoine a itheann an t-iasc/na héisc iad? But if anyone more knowledgeable has more information or sentence suggestions, it would be really helpful to clear this up! :-)

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