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  5. "Auf wen wartest du?"

"Auf wen wartest du?"

Translation:Whom are you waiting for?

June 21, 2013

150 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vitoreiji

"Whom are you waiting for?"

Interesting, the translation uses "whom" and still ender with a preposition.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PatriciaJH

English can and does end sentences with prepositions. It's an old, old myth that it doesn't. Here's a nice link about that: http://grammar.about.com/od/grammarfaq/f/terminalprepositionmyth.htm


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

True, but the kind of sentences that use "whom" are not the kind that end in a preposition. "Who are you waiting for?" sounds fine, and "For whom are you waiting?" sounds OK, if overly formal, but "Whom are you waiting for?" sounds like someone trying to talk posh.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.C.Fink

I don't believe this is necessarily true.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Avery_Eubanks

Me neither, it sounds fine to me


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidO548014

I don't think any true English speaking person would use 'whom' in this context. 'Whom are you waiting for' is pedantic and unnatural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

Actually there are. I would probably go with "For whom are you waiting", but there is nothing wrong with "Whom are you waiting for" and I would certainly not use "who".

"Whom" is simply correct, neither unnatural nor pedantic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EserGl1

If the answer uses him/her, then you use whom.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vitoreiji

Even more interesting! Thank you for that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RHgQ5wlQ

I will enjoy reading your link on prepositions. However, when I was in school, and my mother was in school, and my grandmother was in school, if one ended a sentence with a preposition, it was marked incorrect by the teacher. This was also the experience of other people I've known, from schools in all parts of the U.S., in these particular age groups. I guess those in charge of curriculum back then believed the myth. ? I've always wondered about the "rule makers" in general. Are they simply based on accepted norms of the day? Anyhow, thank you again for your in-put.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RaspberryBlue_It

Hi from Italy. We are being taught during english lessons to end certain sentences with a preposition. "Where do you come from?" is an example. I was dumbfounded when I read that in english it is considered forbidden. Nobody knew it in school.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lhynard

It is not really forbidden. In very formal English, some teachers discourage it, but it is so commonly spoken and written in everyday life that it is silly to say that you cannot do it. Everyone does, and everyone has for a very long time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OscarPevan

Man is like e before i except when...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Chiralmaera

From the article:

If, in the process of avoiding ending a sentence with a preposition, the sentence begins to sound awkward, overly formal, or confusing, then it's acceptable to ignore the preposition rule. However, it is still best to try to conform to this rule if it does not alter clarity, particularly in professional and academic writing.

In my opinion this is an argument in favor of "For whom are you waiting". It's not very hard and doesn't alter clarity. She uses an example of a sentence where adhering to the rule results in a bad sentence: "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put!".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OscarPevan

Lol I often speak like that.. I'm not a native english speaker, but i see it stills sounds good.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bonnythedog

Indeed it does. But rarely like this, which is neither free and colloquial nor strict and traditional.

In modern speech, few people actually use the accusative whom, which is generally seen as archaic and existing only for old people left behind by life to find something to gripe about...

Most people say: 'Who are you waiting for?' Grammatical or not.

Those being consciously 'correct' would say: 'For whom are you waiting?' They would say it in a casual tone suggesting everyone else spoke like that too, even though part of the thrill is the little sense of personal superiority from knowing the others don't but they themselves do, and that they are the ones who are grammatically correct: because they have standards and because they were taught better...

This version grasps one rule of 'correct grammar', thereby highlighting the flagrant disregard of the other. It's neither 'rules are for fools' iconoclasm, nor I eat cake with a fork, even when alone stickler-for- standards...

Awks! :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mhobbs

When I took my first German class and was being confused by accusativ and dativ, I was told that English has dropped the use of dativ except for a few remnants, like whom.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lynilyn

Excellent... I blame the Romans! I think this is another example of languages developing and changing over the years.....new words are accepted and therefore new sentence structures should also be accepted if they become common usage. BUT it might be sad to totally lose a language because it changes too much. Any thoughts????


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.C.Fink

Well, it was a mostly gradual change, but I cannot read Beowulf. It's written in Old English, and English has changed so much today's English speaker has to study it like a foreign language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dodes7

Agreed. I do not think it is correct to end a sentence with a preposition. To me it seems as though the preposition is left dangling.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eva469592

Years ago, in English grammar class, we were taught that it's okay to end a sentence or question with a preposition in speech, but not in writing. Old school, I guess? (British English)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TerryBarco

The contention has never been about whether you can, but whether you should. It's occasionally excusable, but not an attractive habit.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zirkul
  • 1829

"This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put."
- attributed to Winston Churchill


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Randonneur3

For whom do you wait? (Do you agree it is more elegant thus?)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

Yeah . . . I'd have used "For whom are you waiting?"

With that word order, the two sentences are more closely aligned.

Sometimes, to get things clearer, I think about it this way: "For whom waitest thou?".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/janet.nied

Except that "thou" was the informal, "plain speech."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

Hey, hey! I've learned something about English today.

I suppose I associated thou with formality due to its disuse in modern, colloquial speech.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/janet.nied

Yes it's strange that English lost it's informal you. The Quakers used thee and thou for everyone long after everyone else stopped. They said why should they use a more respectful form in addressing others than they used when addressing God.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.C.Fink

Actually, the Quakers dropped "thou" and used "thee" for both nominative and objective. There is an old joke about a Quaker who wakes up in the middle of the night to discover a burglar in his abode. Quakers, of course, are pacifists. He grabs his shot gun and says, "Friend, I would not harm thee for the world, but thee is standing where I am about to shoot."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

I knew I liked those guys for more than their oatmeal. That's perfect. They clearly "get it."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hekeln

My Yorkshire grandparents used 'thou' (du) and 'thine' (dich). I think there are still places in Northern Britain where it is spoken. Your idwa is a very good one.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

My mother told me when she was cycling through Yorkshire as a young girl and clearly looking poorer than she was, a kindly old man asked "'Ast tha any brass, lass?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NeilCockling

You can still hear the phrase "It's got his eye on me and thee" in northern Britain.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Annaduck81

I was thinking that we don't really hear things like that anymore, until Neil reminded me about 'me and thee' which I hear all the time! We also use 'tha' a lot, as in "Tha's got a lot of nerve stealing my chocolate biscuits!" Don't ask me where that fits in grammatically though!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Annaduck81

Boldsirrobin, at least she can't have looked dirty, because 'where there's muck there's brass'!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

Thou was simply singular, not informal, in Early Modern English. How it's viewed today in its dialectic use is unknown to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Copernicus-

It was both singular and informal, actually. (See, e.g., Wikipedia.) Both the plural and the formal used "ye"; only if you were speaking to one person you knew well would you use "thou."

Based on some other Wikipedia articles, it looks like the original sense of "ye/you" (in Middle English) was indeed purely plural, but then it developed into a formal pronoun by the Early Modern English period.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

It's my view that the change you mentioned took place during the Early Modern period, between the time of Tyndale and before the A.V. and Shakespeare.

The A.V. relied heavily on Tyndale and earlier translations and continued to use the singular form despite it being nearly abandoned in then-current usage.

The Wiki's statement seems therefore overbroad in stating that thou was informal for the Early Modern period. By the same token, my statement was equally overbroad in saying thou wasn't informal for the Early Modern period.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maria.nils

I'd say that "For whom are you waiting?" is the formal variant, and "who are you waiting for?" the colloquial variant. "Whom are you waiting for?" seems like a weird mix-up of the two, but I suppose they may have chosen that variant to make the sentence more parallel to the German one - this course is, after all, supposed to teach us German, not English


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zirkul
  • 1829

"Who" may be colloquially used, but it is simply wrong grammatically. Unless you expect the answer to be "I am waiting for he", you should be using "whom" in your question. What makes the translation sound formal is putting "For" in front of the sentence -- for which there is no real rule in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vjosullivan

I'd say that the opposite is true. "who" has replaced "whom" in modern English usage. Use of "whom" is archaic and no longer current.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

It's true that many journalists and authors have abandoned whom as "Stuffy" and instead use who as it is "conversational". As far as I know, third-grade grammar still has it has always done.

Dictionaries certainly do not label whom as archaic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

"Dictionaries certainly do not label whom as archaic." True, AFAIK. The OED says "no longer current in natural colloquial speech," which is not the same as being archaic. As far as I can tell, it is still common in three situations: 1. highly formal language; 2. following a preposition, as discussed elsewhere on this thread; 3. as a form of snobbery, as also witnessed here ;-)

Fun fact: Men who use the word "whom" in online dating ads get 31% more responses. https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=10398


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

The opposite is true. The rule for pronouns is to use the nominative in the initial position of a finite clause and the accusative elsewhere. See http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001762.html "Whom are you waiting for?" is a hypercorrection, like "It is I."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Er, that article seems to be talking about subjects.

"whom" is the complement of the preposition "for", not a subject of a verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

Yep, my bad. I got so used to linking to that piece in debates about the grammaticality of sentences like "He is taller than me," which is a different issue. So instead, I'll just quote another of my favourite linguists, Geoffrey Pullum: "Kiss whom goodbye. It is rarely heard in conversation now, and just about never in clause-initial position. This word is nearly dead. It is close to being no more. It has all but ceased to be. If it wasn't Magic-Markered onto a defaced flag from time to time it would be pushing up the daisies. This is almost an ex-word."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

Fair point - Zwicky does actually say "only subjects of finite clauses; things understood, or interpreted, as subjects of such clauses don't count. "


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lhynard

No, predicative nominatives can, and IMHO should, take the objective case. Like I said, we say "It's me," not "It's I."

There is a difference between formal writing and informal speech. I would never dream of saying or writing "It is me," because it is syntactically nonsense. I cringe if I hear it. Yes, I have grown used to people saying "It's me," with the already informal contraction, but that doesn't make it correct. It's just informal. Just because something is understandable and common does not make it syntactically correct. Heck, most common speech is full sloppy communication and vulgarity.

Likewise, I would say "I am he." I would never say, "I am him," or "I'm him."

In no way am I arguing that "Who are you waiting for?" should be rejected as an answer. It is a completely acceptable way of speaking in modern English. I am against rejecting the perfectly valid and (syntactically superior) "For whom are you waiting?" or "Whom are you waiting for?"

"It is I," is not a hyper-correction; it is syntactically correct, even if rarely spoken. There is nothing incorrect about it. "Whom am I," is neither syntactically correct not commonly spoken. It is a hyper-correction.

"Oh my god, it's he again."

Actually, I would rarely say, "Oh my god, it's him again," either; I would say, "Oh my god, there he is again," or "Oh my god, here he is again."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lhynard

No, that's not the case. The rule is to use the nominative for the subject of the sentence or for a predicate nominative. In this case, whom is the object of the preposition "for" and so must be in the objective/accusative case.

"Whom am I?" would be an example of a hypercorrection.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

"The rule is to use the nominative for the subject of the sentence or for a predicate nominative. " No, predicative nominatives can, and IMHO should, take the objective (accusative/dative/whatever) case. Like I said, we say "It's me," not "It's I." Same with the other pronouns; if you see someone you dislike coming, you don't say "Oh my god, it's he again."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/V2Blast

From @PatriciaJH's comment above:

"English can and does end sentences with prepositions. It's an old, old myth that it doesn't. Here's a nice link about that: http://grammar.about.com/od/grammarfaq/f/terminalprepositionmyth.htm "


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maria.nils

Glad you agree, but I don't understand why you feel the need to post it again.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thvnraz

The evolution of the word "thou" is interesting. Du>Thu>Thou Du hast, thu hast, thou hast.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LloydGA

The initial, voiceless dental fricative (the "th") is older. Modern German, like most Germanic languages except Icelandic and English, has lost dental fricatives.

Proto-Germanic *thu > Old English thu > Middle English thu/thou > Early Modern English thou

Proto-Germanic *thu > Old High German dū > Middle High German du > Modern Standard German du


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertLanious

What many people don't know is old English is a Germanic language, and Middle English was adding a mixture of Old French (from the invasion of 1066) and Norse.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hedgehog69

I would rather ask why is "for" at the end of the sentence in this case. I was taught that using "whom" is rather formal and that the preposition precedes it then "for whom am I waiting" and "who am I waiting for". Vielleicht liege ich falsch :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hekeln

Agree. Please report it!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BlazingFast

I can say as a native speaker, who/whom are words that we often get wrong. Whom is notoriously used to 'sound' sophisticated, high-class and pretentious. More often than not, it is WRONGLY used.

In a typical English conversation, I'd argue that whom is rarely ever used, unless in specific situations, like before prepositions (i.e. to whom, for whom, as whom, etc).

If you must use 'whom', one way to know when you're using who/whom correctly,

=========================== "Whom are you looking for?"

"I am looking for HIM." (not he)

=========================== "Who is looking for you?" [strange question to ask]

"He is." (not him).

===========================

In summary, 'whom' would be CORRECTLY used when you'd use 'him/her'. 'Who' is used when you'd use "he/she".

I'd honestly avoid it, as whom am I trying to impress? It sounds ridiculous in a regular conversation, even if it's correct usage in written English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Quilan

One thing that's catching me a bit off guard here, is that the "wen" is taking the accusative from the 'auf'. I was under the impression that for dual-prepositions (eg. an, auf, etc) accusative implied motion (eg. "Er legt das Papier auf den Tisch") and that dative implied a lack there-of (eg. "Sie sitzt auf dem Stuhl").

Am I to take it that waiting implies motion here, or is this some sort of weird ambiguous case that hasn't formally been covered?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cjregan420

I could be wrong here but I think the "auf" actually belongs to the verb. Aufwarten - meaning "to wait on" could be what's happening here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nemesis_NaR

It's right that auf belongs to the verb. But it's a phrase, verb + preposition + kasus: "Warten auf jemanden" (= + Akkusative). Aufwarten means something completely different - check your distionary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OgnjenG.

My dictionary says Aufwarten is "to be in service"...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.C.Fink

As in "Have you been waited on?" - store clerk (in days of yore).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nicovandiekaap1

which dictionary are you using?And is it available on mobile (andriod)?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/V2Blast

The "auf" does not refer to position/location/motion - in which case it's always accusative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chartsman

Except that Duolingo teaches quite the opposite. Accusative for 2-way prepositions (an, auf, über, neben etc.) is when a motion from one object to another is involved. In this case there's no physical movement but one object waits for another so a certain type of figurative motion between the two leads to the usage of accusative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/V2Blast

I think you misunderstood my point. If it's being used to indicate position/location/motion, it can be either accusative or dative (motion = accusative, location/position = dative).

However, in this case, it's not indicating any of the above. When not indicating position/motion, it's always accusative. (Assuming I didn't misunderstand something when I originally made that comment 2 years ago...)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chartsman

I see what you mean but unfortunately it's not all that straightforward. Let's take the example of "Ich komme aus der Schweiz" that I just saw in the course. "Der" clearly indicates that it's dative where no movement should be involved. If we translate it as "I am from Switzerland", one could agree with the dative use (even though I must have come from Switzerland to the new place at some point so some sort of movement occurred previously but never mind) but in case of the "I'm coming from Switzerland" translation, there's obviously a motion going on, isn't there? Or shall we use accusative in that meaning?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zirkul
  • 1829

I don't think "aus" is a two-way preposition. That is, unlike "in" or "auf", it cannot be used with different cases. Which is not too surprising by the way. German "in" can mean "in" (location) or "into" (direction), "auf" can mean "on" or "onto", hence dative/accusative cases are used to indicate the difference. "Aus", on the other hand, is just "from" or "out of". No location/direction dichotomy is applicable here. And it simply happens to take dative. So does "mit" (with). So what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_grammar#Prepositions


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chartsman

Oh, you're totally right, zirkul! I'm sorry for the confusion, I totally confused it with "auf", silly me. Thanks for clearing it up!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/farbodsalamat

I understand that the auf comes from the verb aufwarten = to wait for (https://www.wordreference.com/deen/aufwarten).

So it is a separable verb. But why does the auf come at the beginning? Could one say "Wen wartest du auf?"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Copernicus-

It's not a separable verb, actually; "auf" is a preposition here. Just as you "wait for someone" in English, you similarly "auf jemanden warten" in German. "Warten" is the verb, and "auf wen" is a prepositional phrase.

Even though your search that link is for "aufwarten," that site just showed you this phrase that included "auf" and "warten." The actual verb "aufwarten" is, I believe, not very common and doesn't mean "wait for."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/aufwarten

It might be common in those places where people still respond to the boss with "Wird getan Hoheit!".

And yes, there remain such places. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TerryBarco

The two suggested translations do not mean the same in English. To wait FOR someone is to stay where you are until they arrive or are ready to see you. To wait ON them is to bring food to their table, or pay them personal attention. It is not unusual to hear the latter when the former is intended (NEVER the other way round), especially in Scotland and Ireland, but it is dialect, slang or "wrong" according to viewpoint.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lhynard

This is not always the case. "To wait on" can either mean "to wait for" or "to serve". You need context to know the difference.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

"I'm not waiting on a lady, I'm just waiting on a friend"

Mick isn't serving tables, so "waiting on" can indeed sometimes mean "waiting for".

That doesn't really mean it's correct, though, does it? "Wait for" is unambiguous and should preferred.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ethankreuz1

there is an english rule we use to decide whether to use who or whom. who=he whom=him you are going to the him because going to the dance with he sounds weird. therefore whom are you going to the dance with is correct, and who are you going to the dance with is incorrect, even though its more common and natural sounding.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

If it is more common and natural sounding, it is by definition more correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrankAtkin1

"For whom are you waiting" but whom dying out. "Who are you waiting for?" now much more common. One would never say "For who are you waiting?" I still prefer "For whom".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mukesh

As this is a question example so based on me the answer has to be "To whom are you waiting for ?" and not only "Whom....". What do you think ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NeilCockling

A very late response to you, Mukesh, but your suggestion would mean that there are two prepositions in the sentnce - which would REALLY complicate matters. The proposition required here is "for", not "to", hence "For whom are you waiting?", or, colloquially, "Who are you waiting for?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Cyred75

In my opinion "You are waiting for whom?" is also a correct translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zirkul
  • 1829

Yes, but only in a very limited set of circumstances. "You are waiting for whom?" (with the stress on "whom") can be used either when you did't hear the name of that person and want your respondent to repeat it, or else if you want to show your surprise/disapproval/disbelief that someone would be waiting for that particular person:

- I am waiting for Amelia Earhart to land.

- You are waiting for whom???


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pedro_Santiago_

How would you answer to that question? I would like an example pleeeeease


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Minervas37

"Ich warte auf meine Schwester.", "Ich warte auf Jonas.", "Ich warte auf niemanden.", "Ich warte auf dich."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dennis766722

"Whom are you waiting for...to arrive". Therefore motion, and accusative?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

No, no motion.

I think it's accusative here because auf is used metaphorically, and not in a literal locative use.

über jemanden sprechen, auf jemanden warten, an jemanden denken, .... -- it seems to be common to use accusative with two-way prepositions when they aren't used literally, though I'm not sure how definite a "rule" this is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mark391951

It accepted, "On whom are you waiting?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertHJMa

'Do you wait for them?' Should be accepted, surely?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

The German question in this exercise is seeking to identify the person (or persons) for whom someone is waiting. That the person being asked is waiting is apparently a prestablished fact.

Your proposed solution seeks to determine whether the person being asked is waiting or not, with the "them" being already determined or known.

Yours could also be understood as something akin to, "are you waiting for them [group A] or them [group B]?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Buffy247975

Whom are you waiting for is technically correct but does not reflect current practice. In England we would definitely say (and write) 'Who are you waiting for?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RHgQ5wlQ

The people in my age group and even much older, were strictly schooled that ending a sentence with a preposition was incorrect. "Never leave it ( a sentence) hanging on the 'at'!", was the teaching. I am not aware of this basic rule somehow changing. It may have become recently popular to do otherwise. I won't give my age away, but it has been some time since I was in school! : )


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

It has been argued over for much longer than you have been alive, but it has never been, is not nor ever shall be correct.

Such prepositions are not hanging; hanging is indeed incorrect - though this rule is widely ignored in American English.

Such prepositions are dangling which is quite different from hanging.

Hanging means the preposition has no object as in the ubiquitous "Where's it at?".

Dangling means the preposition follows its object. This is common in English and has been for centuries.

The only alternative to "dangling" is to "pied-piper" the adjective - drag it to the front of its object.

Whom are you waiting for? - Dangling.
For whom are you waiting? - Pied-pipered.

Both are fine.

I should assemble some links but I just don't feel up to it right now; any of these things will yield search results easily enough.

"Dangling" is a widely used term. Pied-pipering" is probably not, but it is rather appealing, don't you think?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

Pied-piping is a great term, leaving a nice image of the preposition dancing to the front with its associated NP following. I'd be inclined to use "stranding" for abandoned prepositions, though, reserving "dangling" for participles.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

"Stranding" is also used for prepositions which are not before their objects. I haven't looked closely enough to be certain - and I'm not likely to bother - but the two words seem to used identically.

It is, in a sense, a bit awkward when the preposition follows its object, but English resources often don't even acknowledge the existence of postpositions.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

I might be wrong in saying "hanging" means without object. It seems folks use "hanging" in the same way as "dangling" or "stranded".

It certainly is incorrect to have a preposition at the end of a sentence which has no object, even if there isn't an agreed-upon term.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

"It certainly is incorrect to have a preposition at the end of a sentence which has no object." Unless, of course, it's a phrasal verb; e.g., "I fell down."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

Down is an adverb in your example.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

"Down is an adverb in your example." DOH! That's what happens when you contribute to Duolingo forums after spending the day correcting student papers.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RHgQ5wlQ

I have one last comment on this wonderful discussion. When I went to school, and my mother went to school and my grandmother went to school, (very early 1900's), if one ended a sentence with a preposition it was marked by the teacher as wrong. The same holds true for friends and family, in these three age ranges, in school systems from coast to coast. "Dangling" was used in the classroom. The common saying among people during my grandmother's day was "Don't leave it hanging on the at." Both meant the same thing.
Wishing my American Friends, a "Blessed and Happy Thanksgiving!"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/payampazhoohesh

after whom we prefer either pronoun or demontrative otherwise in making questions we use preposition before it. to whom/ for whom


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ashwin1985

Quick refresh - "wen" is accusative for "wer" as a result of Auf (for), right?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Copernicus-

Yes, that's right.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dmsky

Would "Wen wartest du auf?" be correct as well?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Would "Wen wartest du auf?" be correct as well?

No.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marius16773

Auf wem wartest du?

I think this is fit here as there is no movement here, so we have dative.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Auf wem wartest du?

That would mean "While you are waiting, on whom you are standing?"

auf is used metaphorically here, not literally in its position meaning "on top of, onto the top of".

Metaphorical uses of prepositions often use the accusative case: auf jemanden warten, über jemanden sprechen, an jemanden denken, ....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VrolijkePiem

A like that my answer "On whom are you waiting?" was ok


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Masoud148217

"whom" an actual English dative!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/brianl

Dative and accusative both. Modern English does not distinguish between dative and accusative. (Not sure if it once did.)

To whom did you give the book? To him.

Whom did you meet? Him.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

That's Middle English, not Modern or even Early Modern.

It may also be another reason Chaucer is so widely detested. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J.C.Fink

Oh, come now. It's hardly fair to complain of Chaucer that he used Middle English, seeing as how he lived in the 1300's!

Modern English by the way, developed from the dialect which Chaucer spoke. The popularity of his writings is largely credited with the triumph of that particular version of English over the others current in England at the time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/David904136

Chaucer definitely wrote in Middle English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English

From History Gone Mad: 1382 - This yeere did Chaucer ryte "The Canterbury Tales", And theerrbye sette the stayge For Englische stuydentes yette unbourne to haytte his guttes.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tamizha

Can we also say "Für wen wartest du" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bharad.kv

warten AUF (+ akkusativ) is a fixed expression. And something you'll come across quite frequently.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Phil901893

'For whom are you waiting' OR 'Who are you waiting for'. Not 'Whom are you waiting for?' This is WRONG. PLEASE CHANGE IT!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

"Who are you waiting for" is grammatically incorrect. The object of the preposition--despite being separated from one another--must be in the objective case: whom.

Further reading may help you understand, Phil901893.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zirkul
  • 1829

The two "rules" are completely unrelated to one another, and one of them is actually far more bogus than the other, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with 'Whom are you waiting for?'.
The rule about not putting prepositions at the end is actually a myth:
https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/grammar-myths-prepositions/
https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/ending-a-sentence-with-a-preposition
https://www.thoughtco.com/is-it-wrong-to-end-a-sentence-with-a-preposition-1691034
Be it as it may, it is often observed (to the extent where it's sensible) in formal speech. It also so happens that in formal speech people tend to keep the distinction between "who" and "whom" to a greater extent than they do in everyday speech. Having grown up with cases in my own first language, I have no troubles with "who" and "whom" - and I am personally amazed at people who do: how many of them mix "he" & "him" nearly as frequently? I do, however, consider the "no prepositions at the end" rule bogus and observe it only in formal writing.

What would indeed be absolutely and unquestionably wrong is to use "who" after a preposition (e.g. "with who I am friends") since a preposition should force the objective case. The converse is simply not true.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RHgQ5wlQ

"For whom are you waiting?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bryan100984

who are you waiting on


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TheNewDawn.

someone please explain the full usage of prepositions and it's position.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertHJMa

'Who are you waiting for' should be accepted surely?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

Only if you would find an answer such as "I am waiting for he" to be acceptable.

(The correct answer would be "I am waiting for him": using the objective form of "he". Similarly, the objective form of "who" is "whom". See this entry in Wiktionary as a start, and these usage notes for additional clarification.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

Sorry, but this rule is arrant nonsense. I keep seeing it on the web, but I have never encountered it in a serious linguistics text. There is no factual basis for the idea that a question should use the same case as its answer. Consider the following question: "Who wants ice cream?" One possible answer would be "I do," which seems to validate the rule. But another possible answer would be "Me!" which breaks it. Reasoning back, if "Me!" is correct - which it obviously is - then "Whom wants ice cream?" would be an acceptable question.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

if "Me!" is correct - which it obviously is - then "Whom wants ice cream?" would be an acceptable question.

That inference is not appropriate.

(Or at least only if one accepts both "a question must have the same case as its answer" and "me can only be accusative case". It's probably best not to accept the second of those statements for those who accept "Me!" as an answer, and instead to talk about disjunctive pronouns as in French rather than accusative/objective case when explaining the form "me" in that position.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

Well that's the problem with classifying English using terms designed for other languages - which unfortunately we are stuck with. But generally "nominative", "accusative" etc. are used for morphology and "subject", "object" etc. are used for syntax. So I'd say this is a case of using the accusative pronoun form in the subject position, which sounds stupid, I know, but I don't know of a better terminology (just like "Simple Present" is a silly term for a tense that applies to no time in particular). Anyway, whatever we call it, there's a general principle that we only use the "nominative" in the initial subject position of a clause, so the poor "accusative" (or dative or whatever you want to call it gets roped in. The moral is that you can't dish out rules based on the interchangeability of pronouns in different positions.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

"if "Me!" is correct - which it obviously is"

Your axiom is incorrect. "Me"--as in "Me wants ice cream"--would be grammatically wrong.

If you would like a "serious linguistics text" to cite, try this wherein you can find this guidance.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

The sources you cite are pedagogical grammars, not linguistic studies. Their aim is not to describe English grammar scientifically but provide rules of thumb which will help people avoid making mistakes or things that are (often incorrectly) perceived as mistakes. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but such works need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

As for the "Me" answer, you are of course right that "Me wants ice cream" is ungrammatical, but "Me" on its own is perfectly good English (while "I" on its own is not). See my answer above for why.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

Seriously? "Me" on its own is perfectly good English by "I" on its own is not?

Neither are sentences. If one were to make sentences of them by explicitly stating the understood verb, the options would be "Me do" and "I do."

I know which one I would choose as correct. You can bravely choose your own course.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

"Seriously? "Me" on its own is perfectly good English by "I" on its own is not?"

Well of course. "Who's there?" "Me." -> OK.

"Who's there?" "I." -> Not OK.

Now let's turn them into sentences. "It's me." - > OK. "It's I." -> hypercorrection, though arguably one that is so common that it is accepted usage.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/APerson678887

Why is ist wen instead of wem.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Please see my response to Marius16773.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rose173982

Whom? What about correct who!!!!!!!!!!!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertHJMa

'Who are you waiting for' certainly not 'whom'!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

"Whom" is correct grammar.

It may help the analysis to turn the question into a statement: "You are waiting for whom." But of course, many will not find this clear either, so change the pronoun from the indeterminate who/whom to the more familiar he/him: "You are waiting for him" and not "You are waiting for he."

This is one of the times where English has something akin to Dativ.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertHJMa

'Whom' is not used these days, usually it is 'who are' is used instead.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

I don't know for whom you speak, but "whom" is still used--plenty--by people who understand and appreciate proper grammar.

That said, it is used improperly (as well as improperly not used) by many.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

I am surprised that you are so fussy about preposition case yet use an adjective where strictly speaking there should be an adverb ;-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/zengator

Are you speaking of "plenty"?

I'm pretty sure "plenty" is an adverb as well as an adjective. Some people agree.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boldsirrobin

It is in informal English (at least the OED thinks so), but then you are making the same argument that I make for "who" in place of "whom".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RHgQ5wlQ

In English, one does not end a sentence with a preposition.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chartsman

Of course one does.

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