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"Cat na scoile"

Translation:The school's cat

3 years ago

17 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/conor.raff
conor.raff
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So I can see how once we know our declensions we are able to say that "scoil" is 2nd declension, and we can follow the rules to create a genitive singular.

If we knew by heart the genitive plural was "scoileanna" we could deduce that this phrase could only be in the genitive singular.

However if we didn't know the plural forms by heart, how can we be certain that "scoile" is genitive singular? There doesn't seem to be any rules for forming genitive plural in the 2nd declension.

I've read up on weak and strong plurals here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_declension#Nouns but that doesn't seem to help as its only a comparison of the nominative and genitive plurals after they've been formed and doesn't give the clue as to how to create them.

Even if we could tell if a noun was a weak plural or a strong plural from looking at the common/nominative form, that could help in some of the cases (for strong plurals, as long as we knew the nominative plural).

something i'm missing here? or just a case of learning them off

I know there are some words in 2nd declension that have standard endings, and there is a table for these, but what of the ones that don't...?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scilling
scilling
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If you know that scoile is of the 2nd declension, then you can be certain that scoile is not nominative singular, because all 2nd declension nominative singular forms end with a consonant. Because 2nd declension nouns take their genitive singular forms by either (A) appending -e to a final slender consonant, (B) slenderizing a final broad consonant and then appending -e, or (C) changing final -each to and final -ach to -aí, one can conclude that scoile is a genitive singular form. However, one couldn’t be certain that it must be the genitive singular, since some 2nd declension nouns have identical genitive singular and nominative plural forms, e.g. súile for súil. One would need to know that scoil is both 2nd declension and that it has a strong plural to be certain that scoile is only its genitive singular form, since if it has a strong plural, its genitive singular form would not be identical to its plural form.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Seamus747
Seamus747
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Would "the school cat" without the 's also be an acceptable translation in this instance?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scilling
scilling
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It’s roughly similar, but it’s not an exact translation — compare “the kitchen’s table” to “the kitchen table”, where the former refers to the only table in one particular kitchen, while the latter is referring to one particular table in no particular kitchen.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

That would be An cat scoile.

It also might help to think of "school" in your case as an adjective, marking what kind of cat it is, which might explain why an cat scoile would be correct

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PatHargan
PatHargan
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I don't really see this difference. If you're talking about the school cat, in idiomatic English, you are talking about a particular school, otherwise it would just be a school cat, i.e. the cat of a (some, undefined) school. Just as if I send you to the school principal, I'm not talking about the principal of any old school, but the one in which the statement is made.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/obekim

I would agree with you. I had thought of putting "the school cat" but thought DL would reject it.

You could think of various other similar examples where, when talking about a specific school etc we wouldn't, necessarily, use a genitive construction: "I am in the school choir/band/team", "She works in the school/school's library" etc.

Or this example from a book (Dead Set by Jennie Melville): 'It was only the cat, the school cat.' The school cat was a strongly marked tabby. Here, I would say, the reference is to a definite cat and a definite school and, I think, "school cat" corresponds to "cat na scoile".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SteffanieS
SteffanieS
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I wondered about this, too. It seems to be the same form as saying obair scoile or bia madra. Why are these phrases in the genitive?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scilling
scilling
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Irish uses genitive nouns as adjectives more often than English does.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FauxShizzle
FauxShizzle
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Doesn't "na" indicate plural schools?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FauxShizzle
FauxShizzle
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Oh, (I think) it doesn't because "scoile" is female and "na" is used in the genitive for female singular AND plural nouns.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ballygawley
Ballygawley
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http://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/scoil

scoile is gen. sing. , scoileanna is gen. plur.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/patrickwilmes

How would you say "the schools' cat"?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PatHargan
PatHargan
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Cat na scoileanna.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/patrickwilmes

Thanks

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/songoftheskies

What about a school cat?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PatHargan
PatHargan
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Cat scoile.

3 years ago