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"Hoeveel operaties heb jij nodig?"

Translation:How many operations do you need?

November 15, 2014

32 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DogePamyuPamyu

I've noticed with words like "operaties" that have like -ties on the end sound like "tsies" -- is that really how it is pronounced, do most people add that extra 's' sound in there? It sounds cute. XD


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Simius

That is really how it is pronounced, yes.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DogePamyuPamyu

Is there a reason for this? Like an old spelling, or a pronunciation rule?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Simius

I'm not sure, but you can see something similar in English, French and German with the ending -tion, where you also get an S sound.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nathanihoff

Italian and Spanish went ahead and changed the spelling of the Latin "-tion" to reflect pronunciation, moving to "-zione" and "-ción" respectively. Something weird happened with the vulgarization of Latin, and French, English, and apparently Dutch have yet to get with the program by changing the "t" in the spelling of these words.
Latin: operatio(n)- (the n is added in most forms)
Italian: operazione
Spanish: operación
English: operation
Dutch: operatie


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/edu_lara

Portuguese follows the Spanish and Italian forms: operação. I'm really not so sure of this, but I think this 'ts' sound is originally from medieval pronunciation of the Latin 't', which was widespread throughout Europe.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lkjkorn

Just to chime in, the equivalent to the Dutch -tie ending is -tion in German (e.g. Operation), and the t is also always pronounced as "ts"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Loxmi

... as far as I understand, all of those words have a French root, which can explain the transfer of the S(ish) sound.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

According to the OED, operation comes from Old French, which in turn 'borrowed' it from Latin.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mahmoud930921

Is there a reason why I should guess 'jij' and not 'je'? I seriously cannot distinguish the two unless I listen to it in slo-mo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

jij sounds close to 'yay!'.

The e in je sounds like the 'e' in the English word differ.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LaraQwerty

By the way, WHY we supposed to use "jij" here instead of "je"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

Hi Lara,

if it's a listening exercise, you have to type what the voice said - so, if it says jij, then you cannot type je, as they are pronounced differently.

Hope this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mpakern

Maybe I am hard of hearing, but in the fast version I practically always get it wrong. That's pretty annoying considering that I very well understand the sentence and its meaning, but Duolingo is so autistic with these versions. And yes I know, there is a slight different stress in the phrase depending on which pronoun is used, but considering that there's no context at all which could give a hint on which one is needed, both versions should be accepted in the hearing exercise too. The way it works right now this Dutch course is really frustrating because I make always the same mistakes - unless I listen to every slow version when the sentence has a pronoun.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeverusSnape42

Why is "heb" also in a sentence with "nodig" when there is no word "have"? (Sorry if that's confusing)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GertjanNL

It's an auxilliary verb. You could think of it as 'have need' of something.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

iets nodig hebben= to need something

But I'm not sure whether I got what you were trying to ask.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Romalda14

Why is it not hebt jij? Have i missed an important lesson about heb/hebt?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

Whenever a verb in the present tense comes before jij/je, you need to drop the -t.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AshokMA

Hoeveel heeft u...?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

Hoeveel operaties...?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rhhpk

Why is "je" wrong here?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/El2theK

It's not wrong, only if it is a listening exercise you can only use jij here since that is what the lady says.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rhhpk

I was asked to translate the English sentence, and was marked wrong for using "je", so I just wondered why that's not acceptable.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/El2theK

It is accepted, perhaps something else was wrong. A common mistake is:

  • hebt je - with inversion of the subject and verb, the verb loses the -t in the case of je/jij, though in that case it could tell you it should be hebt u.

Another thing that sometimes happens is when you make a spelling mistake elsewhere in the sentence it also indicates je as a spelling mistake and tells you it has to be jij instead.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rhhpk

Hi - thanks for that explanation. It's useful to know, but I'm pretty sure my translation was:

Hoeveel operaties heb je nodig?

and it flagged up only the "je" as wrong. Perhaps it does that because it's also given as a listening exercise?

At least I know now that it's a duolingo mistake and that both forms are equally possible in this sentence/context. Thanks again


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/El2theK

If it happens again and you are sure your answer was right male sure you use the report function.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MargieMar

Is surgeries also an option?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

Hi Margie,

as I'm only a mod, I don't have access to the list of accepted answers, so I'm not sure whether surgeries is accepted or not. Have you tried it?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mpakern

Can we please finally accept both je and jij in hearing exercices? I feel like I always choose the wrong one unless I listen to the slow version. But really, it's practically unnoticeable and I hate it to make a ton of mistakes even though I understood perfectly the sentence and there is no context to really make clear which one is meant. It's really frustrating.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MentalPinball

Hi mpakern,

learner here. I do understand your struggles, believe me, after five years of studying Dutch I still sometimes get confused with jij / je, zij /ze, wij / we...

It's hard for us, non-natives, to hear the difference, I know. But for native speakers it's quite obvious, since -e and -ij are pronounced very, very differently.

I can only recommend you to expose yourself to the language as much as you can, that helps a lot, I mean it. Listen to podcasts, watch the news, etc.

How long have you been learning Dutch? Remember to be patient with yourself, give yourself time.


In any case, now, going back to your question, we cannot accept both je and jij in listening exercises when only one of them was said. That would be like, say, if someone is learning English... it'd be as if we accepted these for this, just because Spanish speakers have difficulties hearing/producing the difference between these two phonemes.

Keep in mind that, as I said before, the difference in pronunciation exists and is quite marked:

  • jij sounds close to 'yay!',

  • the -e in je sounds like the 'e' in the English word differ.


Hope this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mpakern

Thanks a lot, MentalPinball, and sorry, I just replied to you in another thread. You're probably right, the natives will hear the difference and it's true that I'm not exposed to the language (I started only about a year ago, but just for fun, so I never hear anyone talking dutch actually, I just watched Toon on Netflix, that's all). However, it's not really like in your example: both pronouns mean practically the same if I understood correctly; it should be like the difference between "I" and "me", or better like in French "tu" and "toi". Now these don't sound at all similar, but have the same meaning, the only difference is stress. So it would be great to see a bit more flexibility, because, as I already said, context is missing, so the stress doesn't matter at all if we're trying to find out whether the learner understood the sentence. BTW I taught languages at a high school and if a scenario like this had happened in one of my classes, I would have given the point to the pupil.

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