"Even grandfather is singing."

Translation: Till och med farfar sjunger.

[Mirnoje]

I am curious why the verb is not in the second position (Till och med sjunger farfar.) in this sentence?

[Lundgren8]

I think it’s because ”till och med” (even) refers to ”farfar” so those two go together and form one constituent and then the verb is in the second position after that constituent: [Till och med farfar] [sjunger], but I’m not sure.

[Arnauti]

I think you're right, interesting question though.

[Arnauti]

Come to think of it, it would be possible to shorten this sentence to 'Alla sjunger', ('everyone's singing') which shows why "till och med farfar" is one constituent.

[AnitaVandi2]

I am still confused of the fact that the verb comes on the last place in this sentence.

[shibopshibop]

What is a literal translation of till och med? I'm guessing it's __ and ___.

[freymuth]

It helps me to think of it as "up to and including".

[David181923]

That's brilliant! Thanks

[Zmrzlina]

"To and with"

[Saelil]

I'm a little confused with this "till och med" expression. Does that mean for example in this sentence, that grandfather can do many things, and he can also sing, or does it mean, that many people sing (ex. at dinner), including grandfather. Can it be used in a family gathering, when someone refuses to sing, and the host says to him/her: "'Come on, sing, even grandfather is singing!"
Or did I understand it wrong? :)

[bapt.js]

The second one, otherwise the translation would be "Grandfather can even sing" ("Farfar kan till och med sjunga", I guess...)

[kuiriale]

Can somebody explain what till och med literally means? It's hard to remember expressions like this :(

[Zmrzlina]

It means even, as in something exceeding the expected.

[MesutS1]

What about "även farfar sjunger" would that work?

[volnam]

It did when I entered it, but I most certainly could not explain why.

[ouzun]

Are "till och med" and "även" same?

[Zmrzlina]

No, but they overlap. Till och med indicates exceeding the expected, while "även" is mostly synonymous with också ("also").

[kounsh]

"Farfar sjunger ännu" is wrong? How would i say it with ännu?

[Lundgren8]

That means ”Grandpa is still singing”.

[bapt.js]

What's the difference between ännu and fortfarande then?

[Nihil.77swe]

Har "Farfar sjunger också" samma betydelse?

[Arnauti]

They're close, but not totally the same. Till och med farfar sjunger presupposes something like 'everybody is singing, even grandpa'. But Farfar sjunger också is more like, either 'some people sing, and so does grandpa' or it could have a context like, 'grandpa does a lot of things, he does this and that and he sings too'. So I'd say Farfar sjunger också is a lot like Grandpa sings too in English.

[Nihil.77swe]

ja... naturligtvis... "even" vs. "too"... "till och med" vs. "också"... jag gör alltid dumma frågor... eheheh... tack i alla fall :)

[niynu]

What happens to the V2 rule here?

[devalanteriel]

Please refer to the top comment.

[Mercalyn]

so "farfar till och med sjunger" essentially takes the meaning that grandfather is capable of many things, but even has the ability to sing beyond that?

[ZeinNader]

Farfar sjungar ens

[Zmrzlina]

No, "ens" is used with "inte" (inte ens) in a negative sense of "even" (not even).

[bigswedeej]

Thank you for that. Ens is supposed to be one of the lesson's words but this is the first time i have seen it defined or used.

[JakeFeatherstone]

If Ens is Even why are we saying Till och Med? Too and with granpa? is not even similar to "even" wtf swedish haha

[devalanteriel]

till och med is used in the positive. The literal meaning is "to and with" - so "up to and including", basically, which I think is reasonable.

inte ens is used in the negative. The literal meaning is "not once", and ens is a cognate of "once", although I doubt a lot of natives know this today.

I do agree it doesn't really make a lot of sense intuitively, though. :)

[Desiderata322]

I wrote "Till och med farmor sjunger ". It was not accepted.

[devalanteriel]

Good, because farmor means "grandmother" and this sentence is asking for "grandfather". :)

[Desiderata322]

Yes, that was wrong, I mixed up with "morfar". Tack så mycket!

[AlinaIvano6]

Why not även? I cannot replace till och med with även?

[devalanteriel]

No, även is the "also", "additionally" sense of "even". It can also mean "even though" in även om, but that's about it.

[LubembeC]

This sentence has thown me off. Tried playing around with word order and still got it wrong. Verb 2 rule seems not to fit with this sentence

[devalanteriel]

Please see the top comment for that. :)

[Jorge56864]

Could we use "än" and/or "förtfarande" in this sentence?

[devalanteriel]

No, än means "yet" as in "it's not over yet", and fortfarande means "still" as in "we're still dating".