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  5. "Mo dheirfiúracha agus do dhe…

"Mo dheirfiúracha agus do dheartháireacha."

Translation:My sisters and your brothers.

December 4, 2014

74 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatMcCat

May 14, 2016, the new voice. I believe she's saying "mo dheartháireacha" rather than "do dheartháireacha." (She does speak very fast though.) I've reported it. It might be easier to change the sentence than the recording!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arcsech

I'm never going to remember how to spell these... Anybody got any tips?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ruamac
  1. Learn to spell the singular form first. 'Deírfiúr' and 'deartháir' aren't terribly difficult to commit to memory.
  2. Remember the 'caol le caol, leathan le leathan' rule - 'slender with slender, broad with broad', so that, when you add the plural endings, you'll know whether it's 'acha' or 'eacha'. This rule is very useful when trying to spell any word in Irish.
  3. Understand how possessive pronouns affect the noun. In this case 'mo - my', and 'do - your' cause lenition, hence the 'h' after the initial consonant.

See? Not that difficult to spell after all!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Pixiwix

Ruamac - that was one of the most helpful answers I've seen on Duolingo. Thanks! I'm realizing that Irish isn't a language I can just "pick up" quickly like others...it takes actual work, but it's worth it because it's the most beautiful language I've ever heard! Anyway, thanks for the help. :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KittDunne

To keep it straight I try to think of the sister as being slender and the brother as being plump.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Aixiae

Very helpful! On the 2nd point, I still have a difficulty to understand what is supposed to be slender or broad... any help on how to distinguish that?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Aixiae

Thank you! I had been using mostly the mobile app so I only recently discovered the tips/notes


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/m.g.doyle

Jesus, that worked. Have a lingot.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SueBeaudry

Still harder than breaking rocks! I can manage (barely) to translate from Irish but I'll never get from English to Irish! (And that's not my goal anyway--I have no intention of speaking this language or translating it!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mazzaru

stick a paper on your sisters/brothers foreheads


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/74chad

or better yet, use an indelible marker to write it on their foreheads while they're asleep. Then you'll definitely never forget, and neither will they. This marvelous language learning technique can be extended to all other members of the family such a dozy aunts and uncles, drunken persons, and even slow moving pets.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HarperMacDonald

I'm just going to copy them down in longhand and keep them in my wallet to look at every now and again. Maybe repeated exposer will help me remember . . .


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MNMmcg

Am I the only one who thinks that she is saying "mo dheartháireacha" instead of "do dheartháireacha"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Clare748726

yes, that's what I hear also


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Greg854816

I heard a 'm' rather than a 'd' in there. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately - if the object is to learn) I had one of those "select the words from a list" exercises and there was only one 'mo' leaving the 'do' as the only possibility!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/moryssa33

Why on earth would you introduce words in their lenited/eclipsed/plural/etc form instead of introducing them as their (theoretically) simpler singular form and then letting us figure out how to change them based on all of the language rules after we know what the base word is? :p I'm trying to keep a list of vocabulary, but when you introduce a word like this, I have no idea what the base word is. Same thing with all of the verbs... I wish they would start of with, for example, "ith=to eat", then go into the conjugation.

I'm so confused. :(


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/scilling

See my reply to becky3086 below.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emerald.toucan

dheartháireacha. That's a long word


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ataltane

Sure is. But you can break it down a bit. The basic word - without lenition and without the plural ending - is deartháir. Similarly, the basic singular word for "sister" is deirfúir.

As you can see, they both have similar prefixes, which have been modified to match in terms of slenderness and broadness with the root parts, tháir and fúir

The story is that the original Irish words for brother and sister were inherited from Proto-Indoeuropean and looked quite familiar: bráthair ( PIE *bʰréh₂tēr) and siúr ( PIE *swésōr). At some stage, these came to be applied to religious "brothers" and "sisters", which is what they still mean (e.g., Na Bráithre Críostaí, the Christian Brothers, a Catholic lay order; An tSiúr X "Sister X"), and the words for the siblings were distinguished by the addition of the Old Irish derb "certain". (Modern dearfa "certain" and dearbhaigh "affirm")

So in Old Irish we had the more transparent forms derbráthair and derbṡiur (the dot over the s is the old way of indicating lenition: = sh). Somehow over the centuries we ended up with the spellings deartháir and deirfiúr, but it's worth noting that the generally used pronunciations are quite different:

(Major simplifications follow)

Outside of Ulster, both are widely pronounced as if they began with dr

"Brother", standardly written deartháir, is usually pronounced as if it were spelled dreáthair, dreábhair, dricheáir, or (in Ulster) deárthair

"Sister", standardly written deirfiúr, is usually pronounced as it it were spelled driofúr, dreabhúr, or (in Ulster) deirfear. (It can actually be spelled driofúr, too).

Any of these is OK if you're not too worried about speaking exactly in one local dialect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/scilling

The modern descendant of Old Irish derb is dearbh (and dearbh-).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stina458417

Thank you for sharing this! Etymology is fascinating and in this case extremely helpful!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FearDorcha5

Good article. You refer to the buailte used in the Gaelic type. The needless abandonment of the "cló Gaelac" over half a century ago was a tragedy. Its typographical artistry was unparalleled. Ireland should have been proud of it, but instead found its link to Elizabeth 1 too distasteful.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KittDunne

Only a few years ago, producing Cló Gealach on a word processor was asking for trouble; and even now, a lot of so called "Irish fonts" are just tourist versions that lack the fada, the Tironian ampersand and the ponc séimhithe. Back in the 50s, manufacturing and using typewriters with these extra letters - even without the ponc séimhithe - demanded effort and expense that businesses couldn't afford. If you have ever used a manual typewriter of this kind, I'm sure you will forgive the switch to a cheap, international font - whatever the cultural connotations may have been. Nowadays, when using multiple fonts is quite simple, there's no reason not to use one of the Clónna Gealacha, if you can find one with a complete character set.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SatharnPHL
Mod
  • 1387

Businesses that could afford one typewriter could afford two - if there was a perceived value in having two typewriters. The fada survived because it as valuable, the séimhiú replaced the buailte. Not to mention the fact that h had been used as a séimhiú for centuries before the typewriter was invented.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KittDunne

That's true. However there are economies of scale in manufacturing typewriters with fonts that were less in demand . There are basically two ways of producing a fada on a manual typewriter. Either as an extra key which makes a stroke over any vowel key, without progressing the carriage, or as a second set of vowels which include the fada. Either way requires a specially tooled mechanism. This is more expensive than a standard English typewriter, not because of the different design, but because the demand is relatively limited.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SatharnPHL
Mod
  • 1387

I think you might be over-estimating the economies of scale in type-writer manufacturing during the time-period in question.

And you're also making the implicit assumption that a higher price lead to lower demand, and that demand would have been higher if "Irish" typewriters cost the same as "English" typewriters. The alternative is that "English" typewriters were in greater demand because they could be used to create content in both English and Irish, but "Irish" typewriters weren't as useful for producing content in English. (especially if they didn't have keys for j, k, q, v, w, x, y and z).

Leaving aside assumptions that would take rather more research than either of us is likely to do, the one clear fact is that the fada survived this transition, the buailte didn't.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KittDunne

That's an interesting point. The buailte is nothing if not economic and unambiguous. I'll keep an eye out for the reasoning behind that reform.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SatharnPHL
Mod
  • 1387

It's just a font, there's nothing to stop you adopting it for all your written communication, in English or Irish, if you think so fondly of it.

(Strictly speaking, it's more of a font family, as there are lots of different clónna Gaelacha to choose from).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FearDorcha5

I am aware that I am free to use a variety of fonts in my personal correspondence. My lament was that the typeface that was so ubiquitous in my youth was no more. I considered it a vast improvement on the older system, and the decision to return to it a backward step. In the same way I lament the virtual disappearance of Irish as a nationwide vernacular. I would not be assuaged if someone vacuously pointed out that I was free to use it in my personal verbal communications.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SatharnPHL
Mod
  • 1387

Not the same thing at all. Switching to Cyrillic or Arabic script would be the the equivalent of using a different language. Using a Cló Gaelach is more akin to using a different accent.

Cló Gaelach wouldn't be used for decorative purposes if it was completely unintelligible to people who had little or no prior experience with it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatMcCat

These words are both on forvo now. I'm pretty sure the man who says dheirfiúracha also says dheartháireacha after it though. At first I thought it might be the same word in two dialects but, listening to the other entry for dheartháireacha, it sounds the same. dheirfiúracha - http://forvo.com/search/dheirfi%C3%BAracha/ga/ and dheartháireacha - http://forvo.com/search/dhearth%C3%A1ireacha/


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ruamac

I thought it would be 'mo chuid dheirfiúr agus do chuid dheartháir, just as we say, 'mo chuid mhac agus do chuid inion.' I could be entirely wrong, of course but I'm really hoping I'm right! If I'm not, I'm totally disowning my siblings!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/balbhan

cuid X is used with "non-inalienable" mass nouns. Things that are definitely all in one category (which brothers are), and could potentially cease to be yours (which brothers can't).

Brothers, body parts, etc. cannot cease to be yours, so they are "inalienable", and don't take cuid. The same goes for mac and inion, so you wouldn't say cuid mac or cuid hiníon. Although it seems hair and teeth can take cuid, even if arms and legs can't.

By the way, cuid doesn't lenite the next word! https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuid#Irish


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ruamac

I learnt the term, 'mo chuid mac,' from P10 of Now You're Talking. (Yes, you're right, it shouldn't lenite 'mac'.)

It says that this is how you introduce more than one son. I've also been taught, 'mo chuid fiacla,' and 'mo chuid gruaige'. It refers to something that a person owns that is countable, divisible or can in some way be measured or quantified.. It can also be used in reference to work, land, patience, books, friends, etc. Maybe it's an Ulster thing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/becky3086

For the life of me I can't understand why they have introduced us to sister and brother this way. Why not introduce the singular noun first? Seems so backwards.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/scilling

It’s the luck of a random number generator that has given you an exercise with the plural forms before exercises with the singular forms. The only way to guarantee that the singular forms would be presented before the plural forms would be to put the singular forms in a separate skill that comes before the skill with the plural forms.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/torowan

I would support that breaking into separate lessons! And maybe get a few of the simplest terms - father, mother, son, daughter - up into one of the 'basics' lessons, before you have to face lenition too.

The way it is organized now probably works well for people that grew up exposed to Irish, or some Celtic language, and have an intuitive framework to build on; but for those who were not (in my case, the ancestors left 180 years ago ...) this is a tough. I'm going through each of the lessons multiple times; and still am not sure when I've got the base form of a word drilled into my head vs. a linted, eclipsed, declinated, conjugated, whatever-else-I'm-missing-in-this-list form of the word; and then I hope I've figured out the pronunciation right too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/scilling

Introducing “mother” or “woman” before lenition would mean that you couldn’t have “the mother” or “the woman” before the Lenition skill — lenition is particularly important for feminine nouns.

If most of Duolingo’s users use one of the apps rather than the Web site, then for Irish it would be helpful to have access to each skill’s Tips and Notes in the apps, since people without previous exposure to Irish might be confused as to why e.g. fear becomes an fear, but bean becomes an bhean. However, that would be an issue for the Duolingo infrastructure people to implement, not the course creators.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KittDunne

Are you honestly unable to learn to spell this? Break it down into smaller words. Remember learning to spell "vegetables" as "vege-tables"? It was hard work back in 2nd grade! Thinking of spelling "accommodation" still makes my hair stand up. But the same techniques apply.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mikeinkerry

fuaimniú uafásach


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dim-ond-dysgwr

I don't want to frighten the horses, but Wiktionary explains that the Irish word for "sister", standardly written as deirfiúr, is pronounced as if spelled deirfear, deirfeár, deiriofúr, deirthiúr, dreabhthar, dreithiúr, drifiúr, or driofúr. The dictionary at www.foclóir.ie (which is usually so helpful) appears to have thrown the towel in and gives no pronunciations at all!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SatharnPHL
Mod
  • 1387

If you look for the pronunciatino of deirfiúr on the other dictionary website that Foras na Gaeilge is responsible for, teanglann.ie, it shows that there is audio for deirfiúr chéile and deirfiúr chleamhnais.

focloir.ie and teanglann.ie use the same audio files, and you can also hear these samples on the focloir.ie entry for sister-in-law.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EireCailin

How do you pronounce the letters "gh" and "dh"? I've been having problems with this lately. Are they both pronounced like "gw"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/balbhan

Normally, they're like a Greek gamma, or somewhat like a French "r". Say "g", but let the air escape over your tongue instead of stopping it.

But before "e" and "i" (and after "i"), they are "y". dheirfiúracha is (very) roughly "yairfyooracha".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EireCailin

Thank you very much!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AinePoilin

Can anyone please explain to my the pronunciation of the "dh-" sound at the beginning of both of these words? I keep hearing what, in my native language is a sort of guttural g-sound (similar to 'ch' in the Scottisch "loch"), but this makes no sense to me...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ataltane

dh has two pronunciations in Irish (like most consonants), depending on whether it's leathan or caol ('broad' or 'narrow').

When dh appears next to an i or e, it's caol and is pronounced like English y (so dhia is pronounced like 'yee-ah').

When dh appears next to an a, o, or u, it's leathan and is pronouced as a voiced velar fricative, i.e. a voiced version of the sound in 'loch', which you might imagine being spelling 'gh' in some language. So dhá is like "ghaw".

Also, the Irish letter gh is pronouced exactly the same as dh in all circumstances.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AinePoilin

Thank you, ataltane! This is really helpful.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChromateX

Isn't that DH a J sound?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SatharnPHL
Mod
  • 1387

No, dh is never a J sound.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/brian570956

How come in Spanish Duolingo there is an option to listen at a slower speed and not in irish?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KittDunne

The Irish voices are human speakers speaking at a moderate to slow rate, not a machine.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/becky3086

My God, no wonder the language is having a hard time staying going. Who could ever spell this?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dar...

A quintessential floccinaucinihilipilification of Gaeilge, frequently expressed in exasperation by those, (also by me), encountering the seeming incomprehensibilities of Gaeilge, …but perhaps the Irish aren’t the only one’s with a tendency for sesquipedalianism? ;-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/il_piccione

Um...what's with the convoluted terms for sister and brother? And is there a general term for "sibling" or "siblings"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/balbhan

ataltane above explains the origins of these words. Sibling would be "siblín".

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