Tills refers to something happening up until a certain point, but förrän is paired with a preceding inte and refers to something being possible to do from a certain point onwards.
Could you provide an example sentence for both please? I'm not sure I full understand the difference.
Jag ska leta tills jag hittar den = I will be looking until I find it
In this sentence, we're talking about the fact that I will be continuing to look for something until certain criterion (me finding it) is met. I will then stop looking.
Jag ska inte gå förrän jag hittar den = I will not leave until I find it
In this sentence, we're talking about a future action (me leaving) that will begin to happen once the same criteron as above is met (me finding it). I will leave as soon as I find it.
The difference is thus whether the action stops or starts when the criteria are met. Does that make it clearer?
Man you're fast. There is no reply button under your last post so I use the one under your former comment (and give myself a like-point for the correct order).
It's perfectly clear to me now that “förrän” is never by itself, but needs “inte” or a other negating word.
In my second example, would it be correct Swedish if 'förrän' is replaced by 'innan'?
Jag ska leta innan jag går - I will be looking before I leave
I'm not sure. Is it 'förrän' if you can replace 'until' with 'before'? Like:
Jag ska leta tills jag går - I will be looking until I leave
Jag ska leta förrän jag går - I will be looking before I leave
So your post made me look back on this and realise a mistake on my part. "Förrän" is paired with "inte" meaning "not until". That should probably make it clearer.
I assume it's okay that the verb isn't in the second position because this is just a sentence fragment?
”Tills” here is a conjunction and after conjunctions the normal word order apply, just as you would say ”Du hittar den.” (You find it.)
Yes, "Until" or "Tills" in this lesson is not a preposition. What do you think was the object of the preposition? The clause "you find it" follows "until" and the clause "du hittar den" follows "tills" here. I know that "until" can be either a preposition or a conjunction, but the dictionary that you are using does not acknowledge that, nor for the Swedish. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tills
The following better dictionary recognizes "tills" as a conjunction.
Perhaps it is important to note that this is not a complete sentence and in such a situation the conjunction introduces a clause. There is not a rest of sentence for it to connect that clause to.
You are right. We could imagine the whole sentence as, "Let's not leave until you find it." Then it's clear it is a conjunction. Thanks for clarifying. I just edited my comment, which had 25 upvotes in October of 2016 anyway!
"Tills" means until and "till" means "to". I'm going to the restaurant = Jag går till restaurangen.
If you want to say that you walk to a certain restaurant, you say Jag går till restaurangen. If you want to say that you go to a restaurant in order to eat, you say Jag går på restaurang.
En-words and ett-words respectively.
When a dummy pronoun is used (formal subject), as in det regnar ("it rains"), it's always det.
That's what I thought... but then why is it 'den' rather than 'det' in this sentence, when we don't know what the 'it' is that's being referred to? If the gender is unknown, we should use 'det', right?
The sentence is actually ambiguous about the grammatical gender of the object in question, so here both den and det are correct.
Thanks, so if we are are talking about 'it' as the subject, it defaults to det if the gender is ambiguous, but if we are talking about 'it' as a subject and the gender is ambiguous, as in this sentence, we can use either gender?
I think in most cases like this, the gender will be known, because we're referencing some specific noun from the last (or a recent) sentence.
Perhaps you didn't encounter it earlier. The lessons randomize what words are being taught, and thus there is a possibility that one word here and there might not be appear in it's designated lessons if you brushed though it quite fast.
But well, you learned it now! :)
It is. If it's not accepted, please report it and send a screenshot to the devs.
Hmm if you hover over "den" it translates to "it" "the" and "the one." What context would you use the last translation in? Interpreting the sentence as "Until you find the one." is incorrect.
They said "Förrän" comes with an "Inte". But can "Tills" come with en "inte" too? Like: Jag ska inte åker tills du hitter det"
No, because "tills du hittar den" is a subclause. In the subclause, the V2 rule doesn't apply.
Imagine the full sentence, it could be something like "Vi ska stanna här tills du hittar den."
Words like inte and gärna, for example, come before the verb in the subclause, unlike in the main clause (because of the V2 rule). So, for example, "Jag ska gå inte om inte du kommer" meaning "I'm not going if you don't come."
And if you just asked me a question like "Ska du gå?" I may just answer "Nej, om inte du kommer," meaning "No, unless you come." or "No, if you don't come." I like how the structure is similar to older English... "I shall go not if not you come..."
BTW, I'm a Swedish learner myself, so I could be wrong here! I'm sure someone will correct if I'm completely wrong (always possible)