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"Till och med farfar sjunger."

Translation:Even grandfather is singing.

3 years ago

44 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/spiffwalker
spiffwalker
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Is there a literal translation/equivalent to this in English? Or some way for my brain to remember it better?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hdcanis
hdcanis
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The most literal translation that is used in English is probably "up to and including" (the actual literal translation is "to and with"). "family members up to and including grandfather are singing".

But like others said, it is used as a common phrase.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/cvictoria42

Ah, that does help make it easier to remember!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lundgren8
Lundgren8
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Till och med is a fixed expression meaning even.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/yidne

But I also thought that "till och med" or "t.o.m" as is written in some Swedish ads means "until".

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lundgren8
Lundgren8
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It can also mean that.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/m.aster
m.aster
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Is it ambiguous in this usage? (I.e. could this mean "Until grandfather sings"?)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lundgren8
Lundgren8
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Not really, then you’d rather use tills farfar sjunger. You mostly use till och med with dates and such, like:

  • Från och med nu (fr.o.m.), till och med (t.o.m.) onsdag. = From now until Wednesday.
3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/thorr18
thorr18
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I feel the above "to and with" ("up to and including") explanation makes this less confusing because "up to and including [a date/time]" is like "until", but "up to and including grandpa" is like "even".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sandeepa2
sandeepa2
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tack så mycket

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JavadMousa3

That is what i exactly taught(thought)

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Bernicus
Bernicus
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Is även a synonym for till och med?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Zmrzlina
Zmrzlina
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Till och med implies exceeded expectations, whereas även means also. So, well, not really.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SunnySundquist

Thanks, because this was the most confusing sentence I have seen. It looks like "To and with grandfather sings." and I thought it was an error.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dagummace
dagummace
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A whole sentence without diacriticals!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LorenzCapantini

Why in this sentence the use of "till och med" + the subject in the first position is correct, whereas in the previous example (Hon till och med talar med svenska) was considered incorrect?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arnauti
Arnauti
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This is because of the V2 rule: the verb needs to be in second place (in all main clauses that are not questions).

till och med farfar counts as a unit here, because you can replace it with who, he or something like that. So if you wanted to say that even she speaks Swedish, you could have the word order Till och med hon talar svenska, because the subject of that sentence is Till och med hon, whereas in your sentence, till och med does not belong to the subject.

The constituents that count for the V2 rule can be very long, for instance in sentences with subclauses, the first constituent can be a whole clause.

Hope this helps!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/LorenzCapantini

Thanks, now it's clear! is there any rule to determine how to form a unit with different words (like adv + subjects + ...)?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RogueTanuki

I translated "Till och med farfar sjunger" as "Even grandpa is singing", but it marked it as wrong saying correct is "even MY grandpa is singing", which I though was obvious from context. Wouldn't that be "Till och med min farfar sjunger"?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arnauti
Arnauti
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Weird, the incubator tells me that answer is accepted. We accept both the version with and without my here. You would use my a little bit more often in English than we would in Swedish.
What we don't tend to accept are sentences starting with Paternal grandpa … because that sounds unnatural in English without a my, but other than that, we accept all combinations.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/podgorsk

It seems that: All including grandfather are singing would be at least equally accurate translation but it is listed as a wrong one.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arnauti
Arnauti
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Yes, I think it's a bit too far from the original. There's no need to rephrase the sentence that much.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/podgorsk

Just out of curiosity, if you say `Till och med farfar' does it imply a plural or singular object in Swedish.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Arnauti
Arnauti
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It's harder to tell than in English because you can't see from the verb. But if I add a phrase with sin + something, it reveals itself as singular just as in English. So we'd also say for instance, random example: Till och med farfar tar sin hatt, 'Even grandfather takes his hat'. (if we'd say sina hattar instead, it would clearly mean that he took several hats).

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/podgorsk

Thanks. This indeed clarifies that the phrase is equivalent to `even'.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gamble.
gamble.
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Can you not write "t.o.m." as an answer or is that too advanced? It was marked wrong

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/devalanteriel
devalanteriel
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We don't generally allow abbreviations. If we did, people who didn't understand them would see them by accident and get confused.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RichardWal211702
RichardWal211702
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"Everyone including grandad is singing" is not accepted. Should it be or is there a nuance?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/devalanteriel
devalanteriel
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There's a difference - maybe grandma isn't singing even though grandpa is?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/RichardWal211702
RichardWal211702
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Ah, got it!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SagiEzov
SagiEzov
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Sometimes the sj sounds roughly like "khw" as in spanish "Juan", and sometimes I hear something like "sh" sound inside there as well, like in this sentence. Kan någon förklara det?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/devalanteriel
devalanteriel
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Those are two different sounds: the sj-sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sj-sound) and the tj-sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_sibilant). You can find some excellent videos on both here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUb87YTKOTgnGcAM4toC-6A/videos

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SagiEzov
SagiEzov
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No, no. I am not talking about the tj sound in words like "köp", I am talking about the sj sound having 2 different variations as far As I can hear: Sometimes its "khw" and sometimes "shkhw" (a bit hard to transcribe...) like in this recording.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/devalanteriel
devalanteriel
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Could you give an example of each? I don't quite understand what you mean.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Gonukem
Gonukem
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Meningen vore... Till och med sjunger farfar... Eller hur?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/devalanteriel
devalanteriel
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No, please see Arnauti's comment above.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/shimashima2

What s wrong with : Even the grandfather sings

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/devalanteriel
devalanteriel
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There's no definite in the Swedish sentence.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NatalieBoa3
NatalieBoa3
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Why does med sound more like mer?

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Beanybadger

In this context, it implies that grandfather is singing along with other people even though he doesn't usually. Would the word order have to change to make it mean 'grandfather is even singing?' (i.e. Grandfather is so happy that he is even singing, amongst other activities)

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JMiklasS
JMiklasS
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Ah. This is like Dutch "tot en met" - t.e.m.

6 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/quantum07
quantum07
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Why is " finns" in the sentence?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/thorr18
thorr18
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It's not; "finns" is not in this sentence.

2 years ago