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  5. "Till och med farfar sjunger."

"Till och med farfar sjunger."

Translation:Even grandfather is singing.

December 11, 2014

46 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/spiffwalker

Is there a literal translation/equivalent to this in English? Or some way for my brain to remember it better?

December 11, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hdcanis

The most literal translation that is used in English is probably "up to and including" (the actual literal translation is "to and with"). "family members up to and including grandfather are singing".

But like others said, it is used as a common phrase.

January 25, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cvictoria42

Ah, that does help make it easier to remember!

April 6, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lundgren8

Till och med is a fixed expression meaning even.

December 11, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yidne

But I also thought that "till och med" or "t.o.m" as is written in some Swedish ads means "until".

December 20, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lundgren8

It can also mean that.

December 21, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/m.aster

Is it ambiguous in this usage? (I.e. could this mean "Until grandfather sings"?)

December 22, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lundgren8

Not really, then you’d rather use tills farfar sjunger. You mostly use till och med with dates and such, like:

  • Från och med nu (fr.o.m.), till och med (t.o.m.) onsdag. = From now until Wednesday.
December 22, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/thorr18

I feel the above "to and with" ("up to and including") explanation makes this less confusing because "up to and including [a date/time]" is like "until", but "up to and including grandpa" is like "even".

May 12, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sandeepa2

tack så mycket

January 10, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JavadMousa3

That is what i exactly taught(thought)

December 13, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bernicus

Is även a synonym for till och med?

December 18, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zmrzlina

Till och med implies exceeded expectations, whereas även means also. So, well, not really.

December 18, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SunnySundquist

Thanks, because this was the most confusing sentence I have seen. It looks like "To and with grandfather sings." and I thought it was an error.

March 10, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dagummace

A whole sentence without diacriticals!

April 13, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LorenzCapantini

Why in this sentence the use of "till och med" + the subject in the first position is correct, whereas in the previous example (Hon till och med talar med svenska) was considered incorrect?

April 20, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arnauti

This is because of the V2 rule: the verb needs to be in second place (in all main clauses that are not questions).

till och med farfar counts as a unit here, because you can replace it with who, he or something like that. So if you wanted to say that even she speaks Swedish, you could have the word order Till och med hon talar svenska, because the subject of that sentence is Till och med hon, whereas in your sentence, till och med does not belong to the subject.

The constituents that count for the V2 rule can be very long, for instance in sentences with subclauses, the first constituent can be a whole clause.

Hope this helps!

April 20, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LorenzCapantini

Thanks, now it's clear! is there any rule to determine how to form a unit with different words (like adv + subjects + ...)?

April 20, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HoroTanuki

I translated "Till och med farfar sjunger" as "Even grandpa is singing", but it marked it as wrong saying correct is "even MY grandpa is singing", which I though was obvious from context. Wouldn't that be "Till och med min farfar sjunger"?

July 31, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arnauti

Weird, the incubator tells me that answer is accepted. We accept both the version with and without my here. You would use my a little bit more often in English than we would in Swedish.
What we don't tend to accept are sentences starting with Paternal grandpa … because that sounds unnatural in English without a my, but other than that, we accept all combinations.

July 31, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/podgorsk

It seems that: All including grandfather are singing would be at least equally accurate translation but it is listed as a wrong one.

June 1, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arnauti

Yes, I think it's a bit too far from the original. There's no need to rephrase the sentence that much.

July 31, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/podgorsk

Just out of curiosity, if you say `Till och med farfar' does it imply a plural or singular object in Swedish.

June 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arnauti

It's harder to tell than in English because you can't see from the verb. But if I add a phrase with sin + something, it reveals itself as singular just as in English. So we'd also say for instance, random example: Till och med farfar tar sin hatt, 'Even grandfather takes his hat'. (if we'd say sina hattar instead, it would clearly mean that he took several hats).

June 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/podgorsk

Thanks. This indeed clarifies that the phrase is equivalent to `even'.

June 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gamble.

Can you not write "t.o.m." as an answer or is that too advanced? It was marked wrong

June 27, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/devalanteriel

We don't generally allow abbreviations. If we did, people who didn't understand them would see them by accident and get confused.

May 12, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RichardWal211702

"Everyone including grandad is singing" is not accepted. Should it be or is there a nuance?

February 17, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/devalanteriel

There's a difference - maybe grandma isn't singing even though grandpa is?

February 17, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RichardWal211702

Ah, got it!

February 17, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SagiEzov

Sometimes the sj sounds roughly like "khw" as in spanish "Juan", and sometimes I hear something like "sh" sound inside there as well, like in this sentence. Kan någon förklara det?

May 12, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/devalanteriel

Those are two different sounds: the sj-sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sj-sound) and the tj-sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_sibilant). You can find some excellent videos on both here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUb87YTKOTgnGcAM4toC-6A/videos

May 12, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SagiEzov

No, no. I am not talking about the tj sound in words like "köp", I am talking about the sj sound having 2 different variations as far As I can hear: Sometimes its "khw" and sometimes "shkhw" (a bit hard to transcribe...) like in this recording.

May 17, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/devalanteriel

Could you give an example of each? I don't quite understand what you mean.

May 17, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gonukem

Meningen vore... Till och med sjunger farfar... Eller hur?

June 23, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/devalanteriel

No, please see Arnauti's comment above.

June 23, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shimashima2

What s wrong with : Even the grandfather sings

July 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/devalanteriel

There's no definite in the Swedish sentence.

July 3, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NatalieBoa3

Why does med sound more like mer?

November 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Beanybadger

In this context, it implies that grandfather is singing along with other people even though he doesn't usually. Would the word order have to change to make it mean 'grandfather is even singing?' (i.e. Grandfather is so happy that he is even singing, amongst other activities)

January 22, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JMiklasS

Ah. This is like Dutch "tot en met" - t.e.m.

February 14, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mshort1803

why isn't "Even grandpa is singing" correct?

February 24, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/devalanteriel

That actually is accepted.

February 24, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/quantum07

Why is " finns" in the sentence?

June 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/thorr18

It's not; "finns" is not in this sentence.

June 9, 2016
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