anden is one of the words where pitch accent might trip you up. I recommend watching this video by blehg to understand it better.
If you listen to the pronunciation here, the speaker says first anden = the spirit, like in the holy ghost, and then anden = the duck. If you can't hear the difference, that's normal. It can take a while to catch it.
For some reason, my phone never wants me to click imbedded links. Could you give the full link if it's not too much trouble? Please and thank you! :)
wow, that video is amazing! Why is this not linked in the beginning of the course? I didn't get that this was why words sounded different, if only I had paid attention to this from the beginning...
Is the audio correct here? Doesn't it say "the holy duck"? Shouldn't it be pronounced with that second pitch accent?
'anden' is here pronounced way too fast. It should be a stress on both An and on the ending 'En* = An-dEn
Why is it helige, not heliga? I thought one uses -e only with nouns referring to men.
Both helige and heliga work fine for the holy spirit, helige is a bit more old-fashioned. Both are accepted.
Not exactly. I wrote "Den heliga anden" and I got "Almost correct! Den helige anden".
Since you're writing in this forum, you must have had it as a 'listen and type' exercise. And since the voice actually says helige, not heliga, your answer is really only "almost correct". When translating from English into Swedish though, both are accepted answers.
Thanks for your explanation, now I see. Anyway, I wrote "heliga" because I didn't catch the "e" (it sounds like "heliga" to my ears) :-)
Since May 2018 only "den heliga Anden" is accepted in the Swedish church, as the holy ghost has to be a female being (to make up for the Son being male). Not asking you to rewrite the course though (especially since both answers are accepted and other religious Swedish movements still use "den helige Anden") - I'm only adding the info.
That is absolutely not correct.
The -e ending is optional in Swedish for males, so -a is neutral - not feminine. Hence, it makes perfect sense to use either heliga or helige for the Holy Spirit.
Traditionally, since the 1917 Bible translation, the Holy Spirit always used the male ending. Other Christian phrases do similar things - like how the possessive of Jesus is often still Jesu, or how helgat vare ditt namn uses a subjunctive.
But that "the holy ghost has to be a female being" is complete nonsense. Here's a rebuttal from a catholic priest explaining how the language works: http://www.dagen.se/debatt/professor-i-teologi-missforstand-att-heliga-ande-ar-en-hon-1.1063084
I've never thought of it but how do possessives ending in s work in Swedish. In English we add just an apostrophe, but Swedish doesn't use apostrophes.
Funny, you're the third person to ask today. :)
The recommendation is to use different phrasing to avoid the problem, but the possessive is otherwise simply the same:
- That is Thomas = Det är Tomas
- That is Thomas's book = Det är Tomas bok
However, you can also add an apostrophe after s, x, and z if it avoids ambiguity - Det är Tomas' bok. This is somewhat dated, and discouraged nowadays, but grammatical.
https://www.svenskakyrkan.se/kyrkohandboken Click on the pdf file for "Huvudvolym" and go to page 31 (or simply search for "anden"). Sorry, but I know this. This is my job. And I really love how you call it not correct, because I hate this "reform" as well... As I stated quite nicely in the earlier post - this is for the Swedish church only (not the catholic church nor the free movements). Take it or leave it, bot please stop saying that things are "absolutely not correct" just because you don't know everything about it. Even though you know alot there might be a tiny thing that you're not an expert on.
I know the Swedish church recently started using heliga, I don't dispute that part at all.
However, you also write this:
as the holy ghost has to be a female being (to make up for the Son being male)
... which is, indeed, absolutely not correct.
The thing is, that -e being masculine is correct - but the -a ending is not feminine, it is neutral. This goes for all of Swedish. Hence, it makes sense to use for the Holy Spirit, as the gender of the Holy Spirit has been a debated subject for two millenia - literally.
Exclusively using the masculine ending for the Holy Spirit is a relatively new phenomenon, it used to be quite common with both heliga and anda. Reverting to the neutral option does not make the Holy Spirit feminine - just gender neutral, so that people can choose for themselves what and how to worship.
Members of Svenska bibelsällskapet have been using den heliga anden for longer than this, and Bibel 2000 persisted the change, since it's a better translation of the original Greek and Aramaic texts. It was really only a matter of time before Kyrkohandboken was updated as well.
Here is what Svenska kyrkan themselves write about it:
När det gäller formuleringen "I Faderns och Sonens och den heliga Andens namn" så har det gjorts en språklig anpassning till Bibel 2000 som ingick i direktiven för handboken. Förändringen har gjorts från "I den helige Andes namn" till "I den heliga Andens namn" (den grammatiska formen för Anden är reale eller realgenus i den nya kyrkohandboken.).
Lol, I give you a lingot for that reflection! But the Church has been a male/patriarchical institution for 2000 years, so I suppose the Church 'feels' the 'spririt' IS male. "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" :D
@friswing Tack för.. um... lingoten? It is funny, how language sometimes reflects sexist thought constructions, even in progressive cultures. I think the Swedes are doing rather well, though, when comes to fighting off linguistic sexism: The fact that en sjuksköterska can also refer to a man makes me feel more optimistic about my place in this world as a woman. Apropå, what do you think about hen? From a Finnish point of view the discussion in Sweden seems a bit, well, strange. We Finns have managed to get by just fine with a single word for the third person singular, and all the huffing and puffing in Sweden seems odd to us. Moreover, the discussion about hen is much more composed among our Swedish-speaking population than it is in Sweden.
First one more comment on 'Den helige anden'. I am ordinarily oldfashioned, when it comes to use the -e-ending, I still use it when referring to men. Even though it is not needed anymore. But when talking about the 'spirit' - I would rather say 'Den heligA ande", it feels more natural to me, more neutral I suppose. --- What concernes 'hen', in speach I would say it only about Concita Würst or the few persons I know that have comparably ambiguous sex. For me 'hen' has a much wider use in written language, so I won't have to write "he or she" all the time, when I don't want to restrict something to just one sex.
I recently read a new about the word "hen" because it was accepted by the Swedish Academic Language (or something like that).
Yes, The Swedish Academy (the same organization that appoints the winner of the Nobelprize of Literature), also edits a Swedish Language Glossary Book (SAOL), which this year appears in it's 14th edition. Every new edition takes out absolet words, and adds 'New Words' that has become generally accepted.
So, the hint for anden is "genie, spirit." I know that I should be thinking "Holy Spirit," but I can't help but think of Genie from Aladdin, now...
I typed "The Holy Genie" and it was marked correct. In addition to laughing at this all day, I will be using this at any future church services I go to.
Yes, You are right about Aladdin, it was a lamp. I confused him with other stories about spirits in bottles found on beaches.
I think the TTS often does not use the right pitch accent in the end of sentences, right?
Sorry, have to protest at the acceptance of "holy ghost" and "holy spirit". Whether you are religious or not, not capitalizing the names of these entities is very offensive to believers, and definitely not standard English going back millennia.
I really don't think most believers would find an honest mistake very offensive, but I agree with your point. I'll make a note to capitalise the names wherever they occur. Don't want to just change it here and forget to change it everywhere else as well. :)
Thank you, devalanteriel. A gentleman and a scholar, as always, but being of Swedish/German descent, it seems unlikely you were exposed to the religious culture I grew up in in the U.S. I hope and believe I have always treated you with the utmost respect and appreciation, not to mention admiration, but am quite sure few believers in the U.S., at least, would consider that an "honest mistake". Some American journalists have taken to referring to God as "dog", for example, which I find deplorable, yet the very same ones never refer to Allah as "allah". Let's all make a commitment to respecting one another's beliefs or unbeliefs. Keeping the discourse civil is not all that hard.
I'm actually quite familiar with American Pentecostalism, and if a conversation went like this, I don't see any Americans I've met complaining:
- Hey, you're spelling this wrong - the Holy Spirit should always be capitalised.
- Oh, I didn't realise. I apologise, will fix that.
But I also trust that you're right if you say that not all American believers would react like that, and agree about respect. :)
I'm sure it is supposed to be the holy spirit. Ghost is would be "spöke". Swedish is my native language btw.
Har aldrig hört det utrycket innan och jag är ändå från en kristen familj. Vi har alltid sakt den heliga anden i det sammanhang att det är the holy spirit, för det är ju ändå inget spöke.
Holy ghost är ett engelskt uttryck menade jag att säga. Jag vet att man säger den helige anden på svenska. :)
Jarrett is correct. For instance, Wikipedia:
The English terms "Holy Ghost" and "Holy Spirit" are complete synonyms
Uttryket kanske finns inte inom Sverige?
No, det heliga spöket just sounds ridiculous. :)
devalanteriel Neej, jag menade det engelska uttryket Holy Ghost kanske finns inte inom Sverige. Hehe.
devalanteriel Neej, jag menade det engelska uttryket Holy Ghost kanske finns inte inom Sverige. Hehe.
Oh, right. :) Well, I think almost all Swedes will have heard it in Don McLean's American Pie at least.