55 Comments
For "ce" and how it's used, I found a good discussion on a forum: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1883864
That's very helpful, thanks! Idiomatic use of ci/ce looks like one of those things you just have to get used to.
So, "ce" (derived from ci) serves no <i>particular</i> function in this sentence? Purely an idiomatic way of saying this phrase?
Why introduce ce (hints: us and there) now? Can't we have idiomatic uses later?
I guess "ce" in this sentence is just used as an intensifier, putting stress on the fact that I already am in possession of the thing talked about, or, as my Italian grammar puts it: "le particelle 'ci' e 'vi' sono usate spesso con valore esclusivamente rafforzativo" (here it is "ce", because "ci" turns into "ce" if combined with the pronouns "lo, la, li, le" and "ne") - another example of this use: "Con i tipi come te non ci parlo!" - "I don't talk to guys like you!"
>...another example of this use: "Con i tipi come te non ci parlo!" - "I don't talk to guys like you!"<
That's a good example of reinforcement and use of ci. Here ci replaces the preposition phrase that begins with 'con'. See http://www.uvm.edu/~cmazzoni/3grammatica/grammatica/ciene.html.
I found this link really helpful about the use of ci and ce, worth a look I think
http://blogs.transparent.com/italian/tricky-little-words-%E2%80%9Cci%E2%80%9D/
Previously, "noi ce l'abbiamo" was translated as "we have her".
Now, "I have her already" is not accepted for "ce l'ho già". Now it's "I have IT already". Why?
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Both are correct, so if you put "I have her already", they should've accepted it. 'La' as a direct object pronoun is used for 'her' or feminine 'it's. In the case with avere, they shorten direct object pronouns to l' (except with abbiamo and avete). It could be "I have him already" too since 'lo' would be treated the same as 'la'. Hope this helped a little.
Oh Thank you very much!! I put "I already have her" ... and lost a heart...:)
As I understand it, "ce" is the indirect object plural corresponding to English "us" (or "to us," "for us," "with us," etc.), as in "I bought us the tickets," alternatively "I bought them for us," or "They showed us the picture," alternatively, "They showed it to us." In Italian, apparently, all bets are off; it's just one of those idiomatic usages we have to learn and guess at until we get it right.
rljones, >ci< is the indirect object plural corresponding to English "us". The best page I have found for pronouns is http://www.cyberitalian.com/en/html/gra_prpr.html. I check that page every time I mess up pronouns, which is often!
Furthermore ci becomes ce when it immediately precedes another clitic pronoun, see http://dante-learning.com/eng/2013/07/combining-italian-direct-and-indirect-pronouns-pronomi-combinati-quiz/
I've looked at thmarchi's link and one of the comments is that "ce" and "ci" can drive a non-Italian speaker crazy; well, that's true! While "Ce l'ho gia" is preferred, it is acceptable to say "L'ho gia". Some things should just be memorized I guess.
It means that you just might throw up your hands and change languages. DL Swahili anyone?
- 1902
I don't understand the l'ho part... when does one have you use l'ho ?
I'm totally lost on this one. "I have it here already" is accepted as an answer. "I have it there already" is not accepted as an answer. But "Ce" is defined as "there" in the drop down list, and not as "here". Perche?
This is a special expression and "ce" does not mean "here" or "there" in this case. http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/ce-lho-gi%C3%A0-vs-lho-gi%C3%A0.1883864/ It is just that if "I have it" then it is "here" with me. So they are allowing "here" in the translation if you wish.
No. The "l'" is the direct object. The sentence means the same thing as "l'ho già" but I don't think Italians would say it that way.
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Anch'io - by which I mean, Me too! An answer to this would be good - anyone?
'Lo' is a clitic pronoun, which means its word order is >before< the conjugated verb. Clitics can also be suffixes for certain verb forms (for example, imperatives). The section on clitics at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_grammar#Clitic_pronouns is helpful.
This phrase seems to work either way: "I already have it" or "I have it already"
Doesn't l'ho gia make more sense at this point in the course? the "Ce" just seems a little excessive..... but then again, I'm not a native
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Or: L'ho già. Or is there some actual reason for ce that Duo is keeping hidden?
duo doesn't hide anything. it just presents and then leaves the heavy lifting to you. two suggestions: at the blue home line above note 'discussion'. click it and type in 'ce l'ho' and several threads will come up; and the other is, use other sources beside duo or you will be constantly frustrated. find a verb compendium that gives all the conjugations for hundreds of verbs with examples, and a good comprehensive recently published grammar.
'ci' when used specifically with 'avere' is an idiomatic form that is a pleonastic. it isn't necessary to the meaning of the sentence, except to place an emphasis on some aspect of the sentence. "hai un bel paio di scarpe" (you've got a nice pair of shoes). "ci' hai un bel paio di scarpe" (that's a nice pair of shoes you've got)
also, Italians often use present tense for some past actions that began in the past but continue into the present--my examples.
I wonder if I would understand it if someone would say this to me, at a normal to fast speed. With a bit of luck I would distinguish già, which would be enough. How do others deal with understanding contractions in spoken Italian?
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I have read the comments and I am still not comfortable with this. The way I deal with these things is just to memorize it and move on, not getting hung up for too long on one word or phrase. Eventually most of them settle into my brain. Usually through use the "why" will come. And that's all I have to say about that.
I got through four of the five levels, and for the first time in DL I redefined victory and moved on to the next section! I travel to Italy for pleasure, so it is more important for me to pick up such things as future and past tense, rather than clitics (a term I had never heard in my 71 years until DL!). I'll eventually finish Clitics level 5, but probably not until I return from my next trip this April! And I'll need a good bottle of Italian red to help me through the frustration!
lo ho becomes l'ho because you cant have a vowel next to an h. No idea why "ce" is necessary though. Seems redundant.
'ce l' ho' is an idiom. If an idiom made sense on its own, it wouldn't be an idiom. Idioms don't follow grammatical rules. (although they often follow patterns--many 'fare' idioms are similar; the same for 'dare' and 'avere'.) you just have to learn them. There are lots of idioms in English too--'kick the bucket', 'rain cats and dogs', and on and on. Another similar phrase is 'Ce l' ho fatta'--'I did it', 'I made it', 'I got it done'
