For "ce" and how it's used, I found a good discussion on a forum: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1883864
Be careful, no, here the particle ci → ce (before clitics lo, la, le li, ne it changes form) is not idiomatic and facultative because whenever in the sentence you are using the clitics lo, la, li, le (him, her, it, them) before the verb avere (to have) it is a mandatory element in grammar, exactly the verb has to be turned into aver-ci. Only in other cases it can become optional...so you have to traslate e.g.
Do you have it? Yes, I have./Yes, I have it.
Ce l'hai?Sì, ce l'ho.
To know more, I wrote all the main functions of ci/ce as adverb and pronoun in an old discussion...this topic in particular is in "point 7" and at the end in "note 2 - CI as an actualizing element with avere", but I advise you all to read the whole post to understand everything well: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/28853350
Ciao, buono studio!
They are called pronominal verbs, see https://www.thoughtco.com/italian-pronominal-verbs-2011672. Also, no lingot required, fellow language learner! ;-)
Great article, thank you for this. However I am confused about one thing. the verb vestirsi is obviously conjugated like so... mi visto, ti visti, si veste. The particle/reflexive CHANGES WITH THE CONJUGATION. What about a verb like Darle (to give a beating) how would that be conjugated in the first three forms? Their example in the (3s) form is "Il suo amico gliele ha date" (gliele being le + le). Why the double le? I am guessing the first le is the INDIRECT object pronoun and the second le is the particle that is attached to the infinitive. Assuming I am right about the assumption above, why is this le considered a DIRECT object pronoun (as the article says in its explanation of the particles La and Le. And does this Le REMAIN UNCHANGED in any form of Darle, like if i wanted to say "I gave you a beating" would I say "Io te LE (ti le) ho date"???
I am editing this^
Through research i answered my own question. It looks like "Si" is the only particle that adapts to the subject. The other particles can be thought of as "static" in all tenses like Avercela (to be angry with)
I am angry with you would be "Io ce l'ho (ci la ho) con te" and he is angry at me would be Lui ce l'ha (ci la ha) con me. Am i thinking about this right?
Yup, got this now. Of course I had to follow thru 3 of the links in the earlier discussions before this made sense.
I guess "ce" in this sentence is just used as an intensifier, putting stress on the fact that I already am in possession of the thing talked about, or, as my Italian grammar puts it: "le particelle 'ci' e 'vi' sono usate spesso con valore esclusivamente rafforzativo" (here it is "ce", because "ci" turns into "ce" if combined with the pronouns "lo, la, li, le" and "ne") - another example of this use: "Con i tipi come te non ci parlo!" - "I don't talk to guys like you!"
>...another example of this use: "Con i tipi come te non ci parlo!" - "I don't talk to guys like you!"<
That's a good example of reinforcement and use of ci. Here ci replaces the preposition phrase that begins with 'con'. See http://www.uvm.edu/~cmazzoni/3grammatica/grammatica/ciene.html.
I found this link really helpful about the use of ci and ce, worth a look I think
Both are correct, so if you put "I have her already", they should've accepted it. 'La' as a direct object pronoun is used for 'her' or feminine 'it's. In the case with avere, they shorten direct object pronouns to l' (except with abbiamo and avete). It could be "I have him already" too since 'lo' would be treated the same as 'la'. Hope this helped a little.
As I understand it, "ce" is the indirect object plural corresponding to English "us" (or "to us," "for us," "with us," etc.), as in "I bought us the tickets," alternatively "I bought them for us," or "They showed us the picture," alternatively, "They showed it to us." In Italian, apparently, all bets are off; it's just one of those idiomatic usages we have to learn and guess at until we get it right.
rljones, >ci< is the indirect object plural corresponding to English "us". The best page I have found for pronouns is http://www.cyberitalian.com/en/html/gra_prpr.html. I check that page every time I mess up pronouns, which is often!
Furthermore ci becomes ce when it immediately precedes another clitic pronoun, see http://dante-learning.com/eng/2013/07/combining-italian-direct-and-indirect-pronouns-pronomi-combinati-quiz/
I have read the comments and I am still not comfortable with this. The way I deal with these things is just to memorize it and move on, not getting hung up for too long on one word or phrase. Eventually most of them settle into my brain. Usually through use the "why" will come. And that's all I have to say about that.
I got through four of the five levels, and for the first time in DL I redefined victory and moved on to the next section! I travel to Italy for pleasure, so it is more important for me to pick up such things as future and past tense, rather than clitics (a term I had never heard in my 71 years until DL!). I'll eventually finish Clitics level 5, but probably not until I return from my next trip this April! And I'll need a good bottle of Italian red to help me through the frustration!
I love this course - thanks for all the hard work that's gone into making it so excellent. Are there any plans to add stories though? I find with other courses that the stories are a great way of practising stuff until it sticks. Will there be stories for the Italian course anytime soon? Regardless of the answer, it's still a brilliant course, so thanks again!
This is a special expression and "ce" does not mean "here" or "there" in this case. http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/ce-lho-gi%C3%A0-vs-lho-gi%C3%A0.1883864/ It is just that if "I have it" then it is "here" with me. So they are allowing "here" in the translation if you wish.
duo doesn't hide anything. it just presents and then leaves the heavy lifting to you. two suggestions: at the blue home line above note 'discussion'. click it and type in 'ce l'ho' and several threads will come up; and the other is, use other sources beside duo or you will be constantly frustrated. find a verb compendium that gives all the conjugations for hundreds of verbs with examples, and a good comprehensive recently published grammar.
'ci' when used specifically with 'avere' is an idiomatic form that is a pleonastic. it isn't necessary to the meaning of the sentence, except to place an emphasis on some aspect of the sentence. "hai un bel paio di scarpe" (you've got a nice pair of shoes). "ci' hai un bel paio di scarpe" (that's a nice pair of shoes you've got)
also, Italians often use present tense for some past actions that began in the past but continue into the present--my examples.
Ce meaning: ( that thing ) or ( that place ) .this is the easiest answer.. I pronomi personali si possono combinare anche con ci ( avverbio di luogo o pronome dimostrativo ) For example: ce li porto : the same as we say : io porto in quel luogo loro .. i bring them to that place
'Lo' is a clitic pronoun, which means its word order is >before< the conjugated verb. Clitics can also be suffixes for certain verb forms (for example, imperatives). The section on clitics at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_grammar#Clitic_pronouns is helpful.
For 40 yrs I taught French, Spanish, English and some Latin. Moreover many years ago I took basic courses in Hebrew, Greek, Russian and Arabic. But I have to say that this lesson on clitics is making me completely pazzo! I suggest that DL introduce DO pronouns first with some practices, then introduce IO pronouns with practice, and then mix them up a bit with more practice. After that use the disgiuntivo and reflessivo added in gradually. After the student has mastered that, DL could add the ci/ce and ne particles. IMO presenting everything all at once is too confusing for the typical learner.
I agree. Love this course, it's excellent, and I'm learning so much - but this module is nigh on impossible - I think I've managed to complete two lessons in just over a month, and don't want to return to the course because I know this module is awaiting me. As the previous comment says, maybe it could be replaced further on - or simplified a teeny bit? This is a purely constructive comment - the rest of the course is really brilliant, grazie!
Keep plugging at it! I agree that it was rather intimidating for a while, but eventually I absorbed sufficient knowledge to finish the module. It is one of those that I find I will want to revisit over and over to drill in the lessons. I think at one point I went to another module that was unlocked and worked on that (it was much easier), and then went back to this one. But don't worry, infinitives is equally frustrating!!!
I might disagree with @German4me22. I think that "I already got it" is pretty regularly used … "Did you pick up your car from the mechanic yet?" … "Yes, I already got it." Perhaps it isn't perfect English, but it is commonly used. I think, Esther, what you are finding is that DL might not think of (and enter in their system) every possible translation. And then you have the regional differences between American English, and British, and Australian, and Canadian. Some translations, although common, will fall through the cracks. Another example: Does DL recognize 'Loo' for 'bathroom'?! That is a term rarely used in the US, but is very common in England, Australia and such.
Agree totally. But along those lines I read a post (that I bookmarked) by an Italian about the infamous 'clitics!' He stated that many are not necessary, or making a sentence colloquial, or regional. I hate when an American says something like "Where is he at?" or "Where is she going to?" That grates! But, those are very common statements, regardless of the poor grammatical structure! I think, @German, you and I are fighting a losing battle, eh?!!
Why not l'ho già? Would that be correct?
I don't really get the use of ci and ne so if someone could explain it that would be nice.
'ce l' ho' is an idiom. If an idiom made sense on its own, it wouldn't be an idiom. Idioms don't follow grammatical rules. (although they often follow patterns--many 'fare' idioms are similar; the same for 'dare' and 'avere'.) you just have to learn them. There are lots of idioms in English too--'kick the bucket', 'rain cats and dogs', and on and on. Another similar phrase is 'Ce l' ho fatta'--'I did it', 'I made it', 'I got it done'