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  5. "A frase é muito longa."

"A frase é muito longa."

Translation:The phrase is very long.

January 11, 2015

15 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ischneid87

Is there a distinction in portuguese between phrases and sentences like in English? Where a phrase refers to a single a constituent and a sentence refers to a complete syntactic construction?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davu

This page (in Portuguese) suggests some words that capture the meaning of "phrase" better than "frase":

http://www.teclasap.com.br/falsas-gemeas-phrase-x-sentence/

and "locução" looks like a good choice.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danmoller

Grammar treats them like this:

  • Frase = Any written thing that makes sense ending with a period or a question/exclamation mark
  • Oração = a clause that contains a verb
  • Período = One "frase" that has one or more "orações".
  • Locução = some compound element in grammar with more than a word (there can be many types of "locuções") - this seems to fit a "phrase".

One "frase" can contain many "orações":

  • Ele disse que voltaria tão logo tudo estivesse resolvido (He said he would return as soon as everything were solved)

This example has:

  • One "frase"
  • Three "orações"

1st "oração" (main clause): ele disse
2nd "oração" (works as the object): que voltaria
3rd "oração" (works as an adverb): tão logo tudo estivesse resolvido

"Tão logo", for instance is a "locução" (two words working together, in this case as a conjunction). -- Grammar specialists might want to correct me on this last one here....

Some examples of "locuções adverbiais de tempo" (phrases working as time adverbs):

  • à noite (at night)
  • de manhã (in the morning)
  • em breve (soon)
  • nunca mais (never again)

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/antlane

translating Oxford to Brazilian grammar: A simple sentence is a group of words that makes complete sense, contains a main verb, and begins with a capital letter. - Um período simples é um grupo de palavras tem sentido completo, contém um verbo principal e começa com uma letra maiúscula.( pode ser chamado também de frase, neste caso); //Compound sentence - A compound sentence contains two or more clauses of equal status (or main clauses), which are normally joined by a conjunction such as and or but. - um período composto contém duas ou mais orações de mesma importância.... ( grammar portuguese says that the clause with a conjunction is not a main clause, it is a "oração coordenada" (coordinate clause)// Complex sentence - A complex sentence is also made up of clauses, but in this case the clauses are not equally balanced. They contain a main clause and one or more subordinate clauses. - um período composto é também feito de orações, mas neste caso as orações não têm a mesma estrutura. Elas contêm uma oração principal e uma ou mais orações subordinadas.( subordinate clauses - conditional clause, relative clause = orações subordinadas = oração subordinada condicional, oração adjetiva and a lot of other clauses... //A clause is a group of words that contains a verb (and usually other components too). A clause may form part of a sentence or it may be a complete sentence in itself. - uma oração é um grupo de palavras que contém um verbo ( e normalmente outros componentes também). Uma oração pode formar a parte de um período ou pode ser um período simples, isto é, uma oração forma um período. //Frase, to us, is a word, a group of words that makes complete sense: Silêncio! (shut up!) ‘Ham and eggs. And onions.’ Too much information! ‘Not at all, Joe.’ It rained = choveu. ( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/sentences)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davu

Thank you. That's very helpful for learning good translations of "sentence" and "clause".

Unfortunately, there is not a single use of the word "phrase" in that text. Are "frase" and "phrase" really false friends as my link says? If so, what word or words would you use for these two definitions of "phrase"?:

  1. A small group of words that forms a meaningful unit within a clause.
  2. A group of words which have a specific meaning when used together.

Given what you said it seems "frase" works for at least one of them. How should I translate this?:

  • This sentence, written by me, is a complete sentence that includes more than one phrase.

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/antlane

I cannot help you because the definition of phrase I see here- http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/phrases - we use only in linguistics, not in grammar( we call these examples 'elemento verbal, elemento nominal' ( como você sabe bem o português, vou lhe dar a definição de nosso melhor gramático para Frase: "é uma enunciação de sentido completo, a verdadeira unidade da fala. Pode ser formada de uma só palavra (Fogo! / Socorro! // de várias palavras, entre as quais se inclui ou não um verbo. ( A excursão durou cerca de meia hora./ Que noite de inverno! Que frio. Que frio.// A frase pode conter uma ou mais orações. ( Raiava o ano de 1609./ No céu azul, dois fiapos de nuvens./ Era o meu delírio que começava. - neste caso, as duas orações se completam para formar um todo. Período é a frase organizada em oração ou orações. Pode ser simples, uma só oração, ou composto, com duas ou mais orações." - Celso Cunha, Gramática da Língua Portuguesa.). If you give me examples of 1 and 2, I will think better. This sentence... = Este período, escrito por mim, é um período completo que inclui mais de uma... frase ( Silêncio, pois o bebê nasceu.) oração: (Fique quieto, pois o bebê nasceu) Concluo que frase e phrase não são as mesmas coisas. Incluo aqui a definição do Longman: http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/phrase_1 - frase, em português, não é uma expressão, como 'a inaceitável face do capitalismo'. Compare: se digo Fogo!, estou dizendo algo que tem um sentido completo, porque qualquer um vai entender que, por exemplo, "(está pegando) Fogo (na escola!)". Ou: Silêncio! ( num contexto: Faça silêncio, Zezinho!). Já 'a inaceitável face do capitalismo" só vai ter sentido junto ao resto do período.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davu

Thank you very much for this. You started by saying you cannot help, but you really have. You have helped me understand, at least somewhat, the differences between the Portuguese and English concepts.

The problem seems to be that there isn't a one-to-one correspondence between these words in the two languages. Where a single English word has several roles the corresponding Portuguese word varies depending on the particular role we want to translate and vice-versa.

You asked for examples of 1 and 2. Both are illustrated in the Longman dictionary entry you quoted, but there is no need to consider them further. Now you've given me the word "período" for sentence I feel happier using the very general word "frase" for phrase even if there are some technical objections, because previously I would have used "frase" to translate sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/antlane

you are right, because 'período' is always 'frase'. ( frase can be período, but not always)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lng52-._

Since longa modifies frase (feminine), why isn't it muita longa instead of muito longa?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ruama_semtempo

Because "muito" modifies the adjective, so the word keeps the masculine form. If "muito" modified a feminine noun, like in "Há muita comida" (There's a lot of food), it would be in feminine form.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/antlane

you are right - muito longa (muito= adverb - invariable); muita comida (muita= pronoun - variable)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ymeagain

In 'muita comida' I think the first word is an adjective, as it is not taking the place of a noun but just describing the noun: my dictionary suggests 'muitos dizem que' as an example when it is acting a pronoun (→ a lot of people say that)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PhillipStanley

How can you tell whether "muito" means "too" or "very"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lacyowl

Usually "too" needs "demais". Stressing "muito" in speech can shift its interpretation from "very" to "too" and sometimes context makes it clear that "too" is meant. Here is a link to one of many discussions on this subject: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/1994106


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatherineM663280

The correct term for "phrase" as a sentence element (noun phrase, verb phrase etc) in Spanish is "sintagma" (sintagma nominal, sintagma verbal etc). "Frase" in Spanish is generally used to mean "sentence", whereas "oración" technically means "clause". As far as I can see, Portuguese appears to be similar.

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