In italian grammar you say "Io e lui" and not "lui ed io" as they wrote.
..and after THREE years this elementary mistake remains! But who takes care of this course?
On the whole 'e' is the more common version of 'and' used. However, almost always when the 'e/ed' separates two identical vowels you use 'ed' instead of 'e'. So for lui ed io it is because there is an i before and after the ed. Apart from that I'm afraid that when ed is used instead of e the best answer is 'when it sounds better'.
...same with a/ad (=to): andare a Torino (= to go to Turin); andare ad Ancona (to go to Ancona)
Because "would like" is generally considered to be the present conditional tense in Italian. For example, the difference between "io voglio" (I want) and "io vorrei" (I would like). In this case "we would like" would be "noi vorremmo."
Man, I could not make out "vogliamo" no matter how many times I listened to it.
Agreed - the recorded voice in the Italian lessons is extremely hard to understand. I was doing some Spanish lessons and found the voice in that one to be much better and clearer. This one sounds way too robotic and unnatural.
Does anyone know why ed means a "twentieth-century artist" as well as "and"?
Because in English it should be "He and I". HIM is a word that recieves action, HE is a word that creates action.
duoLingo prefer's formal classroom English (which would be "He and I want a beer."). In everyday English it's fine.
It also is in Hebrew, probably because it ends with the feminine vowel ה' as well. Wine (Yayin) is masculine (in Hebrew). Funny think, languages.
in the explanation either 'e' or 'ed' can be used when expressing the work and...
but is saying one over the other used more with certain economic culture? for eg, would a middle class/posh person use one word over the other?
So the English rule of the first person coming second is reversed in Italian? Does it make any difference whom is paying for the beer?
Grammatically, 'I and he want a beer' is correct. It sounds awfully 'wrong' only because as the original poster realizes, it is polite to put yourself second/last when you are speaking of yourself and another person or persons (Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice and I all want beers).
If you would say, 'I want a beer and he wants a beer,' then grammatically, there's nothing wrong in saying, 'I and he want a beer.' You are using the subject-form of the pronouns in both cases.
It's just not considered polite to 'put yourself first.' The reason it sounds 'awfully wrong' to you is possibly that you are either well-brought up and surrounded by well-mannered people, or well-educated and surrounded by people who are attuned to the differences between how a laborer/uneducated person speaks and how an educated person speaks. You've acquired the idiom of the educated class without knowing that there was a 'rule' involved - the rule of good manners, not of grammar.
Ah, now I see why you were puzzled that there was a 'rule' about 'I and he' vs 'He and I.' Clearly your mother brought you up to speak well as a matter of course. As a former English instructor, I wish there were more mothers like yours.
No, they are not. They are two different verbs, so they are grammatically different, and they are two different registers - 'would like' being more polite/formal than 'want' in this context.
They aim at the same end: getting a beer. But that does not make them the same, any more than a sword and a pistol are the same if they aim at the same end of killing an enemy.
We want tea now but would wait if getting the tea now inconveniences you.
Imagine this scenario where you are at the table with a group of people and you are speaking to the waiter who is taking your order.
So the order to the waiter could go like this :-
The lady in the red dress wants a Tequila Pop and a Marigrita. The lady in the black dress wants a Pina Colada and the guy with a bow tie wants a Martini Dry. These three ladies want a stout. This dude wants a whiskey. He and I want a beer.
It is more polite to put the ladies' request first, then the men's and lastly oneself's.
Ok, now the fun part is to make that request in Italian! Hehee
For the record, if someone would like something it means they want it. They are just being polite and asking for it, not demanding it. To want something implies that one feels one has a "right" to it.
Ok, so I got that Italians really say "io e lui" not "lui ed io", and when to use "ed" over "e", but would I still use "vogliamo" (1st person sing.) in both cases? I know we would in Latin, but I want to be sure. Thanks!
too polite. ("Lui ed io vorremmo una birra." = "Me and him would like a beer.")
'Me and him would like a beer' is incorrect in English, because you would never say 'Me would like a beer' or 'Him would like a beer,'unless you were perhaps 3 years old and still learning the language. You have to use the same pronouns you would use with a single subject: 'I would like a beer.' 'He would like a beer' = 'I and he would like a beer', or, to be polite, 'He and I would like a beer.'
'Me and him' or 'him and me' as a subject is like fingernails on the blackboard - and a definite sign that the speaker is low-class and/or very poorly educated.
If you want a job as a garbage collector, say 'Him and me want to collect garbage.' If you want a job that uses your brain, not your back, say 'He and I want to work in your office.'
Many non-native speakers of English read these forums, and it's better not to tell them that something is OK or natural in English when in fact, it's incorrect, non-standard, or indicative of a class of speaker they may not wish to be associated with. (A Russian doctor does not want to sound like a street cleaner from the Bronx when he speaks English, for example.)
I think you overstate your case. This is the comment section (where people are presumably allowed to express their own opinion) of a course for Italian not English. Not everybody wants to be a strict grammarian. There's nothing wrong with being a garbage collector. Having an officejob isn't the highest level of awakening. Speak however you like, but don't presume I want to speak that way. Hugs & Kisses
PS, here is an excerpt from Merriam-Webster: (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/me) me or i? Me is used in many constructions where strict grammarians prescribe I. This usage is not so much ungrammatical as indicative of the shrinking range of the nominative form: me began to replace I sometime around the 16th century largely because of the pressure of word order. I is now chiefly used as the subject of an immediately following verb. Me occurs in every other position: absolutely who, me? , emphatically me too , and after prepositions, conjunctions, and verbs, including be. come with me you're as big as me it's me Almost all usage books recognize the legitimacy of me in these positions, especially in speech; some recommend I in formal and especially written contexts after be and after as and than when the first term of the comparison is the subject of a verb.
Here's one the disjunctive nature of the English pronoun: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunctive_pronoun)
I thank you so much for your kind reply, that leaves me with more questions than before. My curiosity about the pressure of the words order remains intact, but now you introduce another topic: why to learn another language. What the linkage with a personal point of views about your language? And why should I forget my language if I try to learn well a language that is not mine? I think that the language (which is not a dialect, an everyday speech, a jargon) is something that does not belong to us, because inside it there is the story of our country, the beauty of our poets and writers, the way to express, clearly and possibly without ambiguities, what we mean to say. In DL, for instance, I detest the continuous, exclusive usage of "lui/loro" where "egli/essi" should be used. It's a sloppy system of speaking, it's a way to say to the foreign learner:"Too difficult to teach you the differences: come on! They (we) will understand you anyway". Of course, you are not obliged to write reports, editorial, etc: I would like to know the reactions of your "supervisors". What you call avoidance, often, is due simply to the not-knowledge of the reasons for which persons (more expert than you) have chosen a form instead of another. Often "the updated language" is only an easier, also if ugly, language.
Interesting. But I would like to ask you: "Did you send your children to school? There, they should have learned what the (strict or large) "grammarians" say, shouldn't they? And why this effort and these expenses when one way or the other is admitted and both receive the benediction of the Merriam-Webster, "American company that publishes reference books"? (By the way, I didn't know that the word order has a pressure, but this surely depends on my poor knowledge of your language). Your reply would be greatly appreciated.
I suppose it's a cultural issue. English has its own poetry like any language. Are we all to speak the same? Why bother learning Italian? Maybe we should all just speak English? Should the Italians forget Italian? Perhaps your language has irregularities. Does somebody try to pressure, guilt, trick you out of using them? Children should to learn not to take everything at face value and how to apply what they learn critically. The strict grammarian has three tools in their tool box: reason, passion and avoidance. Their reason sometimes fails. I have my own passion. And avoidance. Avoidance leaves an incomplete education. And who is hurt the most, the non native learner. The strict grammarian's very own posterchild. Is the non native English learner taught which subject to use "she and she", "her and she" or "she and her" No, because the answer is the unmentionable "she and her". We'll teach them the answer is "they". Avoidance!
I completely agree, because there are two manners to speak a language: a good one and a bad one. "To be equally understood" or "it could be said" are not good reasons to give poor examples in teaching languages, and we can only thank mother language people that spend their time to help us and also fellow countrymen that, for misfortune, poverty or (let me add it!) for scarce willpower didn't have or didn't follow their teachers at school, teachers paid with the money of all the community. Unfortunately today everything must be easy and, possibly, free. But in my old language, Latin, they said "Nihil ab nihilo": nothing comes from nothing.
Why don't you use 'vogliono'? It's third person right? Is it because of the 'I'? And if that is the case, is 'He and Jacob' the third person?
Yes, it's because of the "Lui et moi" Because of the "moi" That would make it the first person plural. Vogliamo. "Jacob et lui" would be third person plural. Vogliono.
Do you mean io instead of moi? And is it true that it actually should be 'Io e Lui' instead of 'Lui ed io'
Hadn't heard that rumor. Don't know (look an English sentence without and explicit subject!). If duo uses "lui ed io", I should imagine it's correct. But that doesn't mean "io e lui" isn't correct. Did you try "io e lui" and they marked it wrong?
"Io e lui" it's the normal way to say, less polite or not it could be (but we don't use the capital for "io"...)
I take what I read in here with a grain of salt. Everybody seems to have their agenda. Namely they want you to talk the way they do. Not me. I mean I advocate, but after that it's up to you. I must have some other agenda.
You could say he and she "vogliono", as vogliono is related to the e3rd pl.person. He and I = we second plural person is vogliamo
I got the "write what you hear" lesson. I listened in the slow mode several times and finally put "vera" because it didn't sound at all like a "b" to me. Even after seeing the answer (which had occurred to me, but I dismissed it, because "v" is what I kept hearing), I can't hear "birra." I'll go with it, though. I checked here to see if anyone else had that issue with listening, but looks like I'm the only one out on that limb. So must be my hearing.
I also see "ed" for first time.. Please, guys, explaine me why "ed" instead "e"?
but in english that's the phrase you use. you say i want A beer or SOME beer, unless you are really making a point to just have ONE beer
I got told you try to bounce off the double consonants. So you say the r at the end of the first syllable and then the second as the first of the next syllable. I have no idea if this makes any sense to you but I find thinking of the word a bit like a trampoline you're bouncing off of at the double consonant works for me.
Wouldn't this be a bit inappropriate for children? I mean the laws in Italy say you can have beer as like a celebration. If a kid said that they might actually get a beer.
'he and I want a beer' is the same as 'he and I would like a beer' So why is the second not correct.
Because that would be the conditional, vorremmo https://www.thoughtco.com/conjugate-the-verb-volere-in-italian-4052436 for full conjugation of this verb.
And I want is not the same as I would like. There's a different sort of level of politeness. Certainly when I was young if I said 'I want' to my mother rather than 'I would like' I would get a very different response.
Would you say 'Him want a beer'? Or 'He wants a beer'?
It's the same reason you use 'and I' and not 'and me' because 'me wants a beer' is not good grammar.
In the end it's want rather than wants a beer because now that there is both he and and I there are now two of us and you'd use the conjugation that goes with we. We want a beer.
Unless you're being facetious, because HE wants A beer and I want A beer, so we both want A beer, each.
One could say - in English, anyway - 'He and I want beers.' It would be more likely in the context of placing several orders: 'They will have whiskeys, she wants a gin, and he and I would like beers.' The listener would understand that each person wants one drink of the type named.
I consider "He and I want a beer" in English to be bad English unless it refers to one beer for both. I never learned that "each" could be implied and I personally think it sounds wrong - in English. But this is about Italian, so never mind.
I think in English beer is uncountable that it should not have an article. As I've translated "una birra" to "beer" not a beer. I mean it is not a good translation to make it countable with an article.
No, 'a beer' is standard English, both in the US and the UK. It refers to a glass of beer, which is countable and therefore has an article.
i put we would like a beer and it said it was wrong...... im fluent in Italian trying to get better at spelling
What' wrong with "He and io we want a beer"????.
This is a correct phrase in english. !!!
I am guessing because there is no word for 'we' in the original sentence? I know that the verb already implies the pronoun and 'noi' is not needed with 'vogliamo,' but in this case since the 'lui ed io' are already specifically included, the 'noi' would have to be, too, to be part of the English translation I would think.
That is not good English because it mixes the object form 'him' with the subject form 'I'. The correct form is 'he and I' but colloquially you may hear 'me and him'.
"Him" isn't always an object pronoun. A sentence like "That's him!" comes to mind.
"Want" in English is not polite. "Would like" is polite, and also correct!
This is a very clumsy sentence in English - we would say "we both want a beer"