Translation:Would a coffee make you feel better?
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The English translation makes no sense. The second "would" needs to be removed. Is the Portuguese sentence correct ?
Of course, you're right. I'm sure the version without the second "would" is also accepted - isn't it? The rest of the discussion is about the Portuguese sentence and although the presence of "com" confused me, none of the native speakers have said there is anything wrong with it.
yeah I just noticed that myself - I'm reporting it now, there's no way that second "would" is correct.
I managed to translate this sentence correctly by simply ignoring "com que". What role do these two words play here?
ok... if "que" as omitted, it wouldn't be subjunctive (um café faria você se sentir melhor?). QUE makes it subjunctive (a tough part Portuguese vs English =/). now, as subjunctive, I do not know a certain rule... but with "fazer" it works better "com que"
There are some specific cases which the subjunctive is always used after a conjunction. I found this: http://erikspen.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/when-to-not-use-the-subjunctive/ . It shows the examples and gives some lists of conjunctions. I hope it helps! =)
Thank you for your answer and link. The problem I had with this sentence was less with the subjunctive and more with understanding what "com" is doing there. Paulenrique explained that it sounded better with "com" than without, so I assumed this was idiomatic Portuguese that was difficult to explain to a foreigner like me.
I did find this page http://veja.abril.com.br/blog/sobre-palavras/consultorio/fazer-que-ou-fazer-com-que/ but its meaning is just beyond my poor Portuguese.
Oh right, sorry. Yeah, you're right it's difficult to explain haha. I read the page you found but I don't really agree with it. I researched and I'll tell you what I think. Look, "quem faz, faz alguma coisa", the verb "faz" doesn't need the preposition "com". The correct form is "faz que" if "que" is a conjunction that links two sentences, two verbs. Maybe people say "faz com que" because it sounds better or it makes it looks more sofisticated but it is a mistake. As Paulenrique said, in this case "faz" works better with "com que" because we (brazilian people) are used to say it and it sounds natural, but technically it's not a correct sentence once it doesn't follow the rules and it's not an exception. I don't really know but I think the correct solution here would be "Um café faria que você se sentisse melhor?" even though it sounds weird in portuguese.
I just found this page, take a look at it: http://www.gramaticaonline.com.br/texto/1044/O_desemprego_faz_com_que_muitos_cidad%C3%A3os_vivam_na_mis%C3%A9ria
interesting link! It encourages people to avoid using "com que" in such context. I dont think that will happen so soon =) Or they should add an exception for this verb, as many things are currently accepted as correct by the widespread usage.
Thank you very much for taking the trouble to explain things. Your page was a lot easier to understand than the one I found. This seems to be a pattern established by use and if what Paulenrique says is true then that is not going to change soon despite what grammarians think.
Maybe one day I will get to the stage where I can appreciate how the sentence sounds with and without "com", until that time at least I know if I use simply "que" rather than "com que" I'm still correct even if my sentence sounds strange.
And you'll get at that level!! It seems like everybody learned something new for now... Isso faz com que nosso entendimento da língua aumente =)
If you had not put all those links there, I'd keep on thinking "com que" is the only correct form.
Never mind, Davu! You're welcome. It's good for us too, this way we learn and understand more our own language. So, if you need anything else, just ask; we'll be glad to help (if we can haha). Sim!!! Com certeza você chega lá! =)
Quoting: "...fazer que está certo, mas não quer dizer exatamente a mesma coisa. A interpretação é a de que neste caso, o "fazer com que" enfatiza o esforço empregado pelo sujeito da ação."
@antlane: Thank you. The argument seems to be that because it has a long history and because so many well respected writers use it, "fazer com que" is here to stay. :-)
Davu: Que bom saber. Nothing is ever wrong - just "inadequado ao português padrão". Imagine limiting yourself to "português patrão" when the language is diglossic!
Not to barge in on this discussion/argument, but saying "fazer" isn't used with any preposition because it's a transitive verb is wrong, just like this link shows: http://www.ciberduvidas.com/pergunta.php?id=15224
I'm not saying there isn't ground for not using "com que" here (I would, because that's the only form I know and that "fits" in my mind), but the argument that "o verbo fazer não tem preposição" is at least a little reductive.
Ouch......Luis is so "full of reason" (as we say in Portuguese, totally right) that I seriously question the authority of that person talking in Davu's link......
Ok, I cannot assure the "com que" case though, but certainly that is not the right argument to refute it.
It looks as if fazer com que is acceptable although it isn't "adequado ao português culto" according to the text. I can see that the inclusion of com gives more force to the action on the part of the subject.
Você está coberto da razão, Luís!
Even the word "culto" as a classifier is more of a status symbol to separate you from "gente inculta que não português correto", and therefore more of a mark of elitism than actual concern for how the language truly works (you can notice the disdain in that man's voice over the implied backwardness of people who write "escrevido" instead of "escrito", and that sets the tone for what comes after).
There are a series of grammars that seem to accept both forms, and even explain the process with logical (i.e. non-judgmental or elitist) arguments - for example, Evanildo Bechara's Moderna Gramática Portuguesa:
Também se pode preceder de preposição uma oração subjetiva ou objetiva direta. Assim, por influência da construção fazer com alguém (= conseguir deste alguém) que viesse passamos a empregar fazer com que ao lado de fazer que em orações objetivas diretas do tipo:
“...fizeram (os cortesãos) com que se retirasse para Sintra...” [Alexandre Herculano], onde fazer significa “diligenciar e conseguir que uma coisa aconteça”.
"...com enfatiza o esforço empregado pelo sujeito da ação..."
This reminds me of a hymn I heard in church:
"...Faz com que a guerra se acabe na terra e haja entre os homens a paz......"
I will surely not forget "com que" now... Thanks everyone for such informative posts! 3
Earlier in the course we met fazer com que. It was translated as a sort of idiomatic expression meaning " it causes / leads to / makes". For example "The noise makes the birds angry = O barulho faz com que os pássaros fiquem nervosos.
Why is the 'a' necessary here? "Would coffee make..." is correct in English but was rejected.
se sentisse melhor não é traduzido corretamente com - felt better, instead of feel better?
It's a suggestion in the form of a hypothetical question. "Would a coffee make you feel better?"
edit: "Feel" doesn't represent the present tense. It is the bare infinitive used after the causative verb "make".
I know. All I have asked is about the time of the verb. Can you explain why they used present tense instead of past tense?
It wouldn't make sense in English if it were past. In English, it's an infinitive verb. (And Portuguese can also take the infinitive here, if you don't add "que"):
- Um café faria você
sentir-se melhor? = Would a coffee make you
In this case, they match exactly:
- Would make = faria (conditional/futuro do pretérito)
- Sentir = feel (infinitive)
But when you add the conjunction "que" to this sentence, you must also use the subjunctive mood. And the tense that matches the "conditional (faria)" is the imperfect past.
In Portuguese, the "past imperfect subjunctive" is not necessarily "past", it's mostly the main tense for hypothetical ideas.
This is a hypothetical present/future using a past form to express that. English does that too.
If your question is about the English translation of "se sentisse melhor" to "feel better", "feel" is the "bare infinitive" (the infinitive without "to") used after the causative verb "make". It is not conjugated in a tense.
So I just want to confirm my very basic understanding of the many overwhelmingly informative comments below... It is not neccessary to use "com que" when you write this sentence - however when you use "fazer" + com que you essentially create more of a meaning such as " doing this causes / eventuates to this or that " ... It would be amazing if somebody could confirm if I am at all on the right track with this! Thankyou!!!
férias fazem você se sentir renovado. - Holidays make you feel refreshed. day to day structure. Férias fazem com que você se sinta renovado. - Holidays make you feel refreshed. - formal structure // uma noite bem dormida faz você acordar de bem com o mundo - a well-slept night makes you wake up well with the world - common structure; uma noite bem dormida faz com que você acorde de bem com o mundo. - A good night's sleep makes you wake up well with the world. Structure of written language. It's just a matter of choice. Written language always has a stronger meaning, of course. ( and please, you can improve the English sentences)