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- "Jag älskar inte dig, utan ho…
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You can read about the difference between "men" (but) and "utan" (but) here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/utan#Usage_notes
For those who speak Spanish, "utan" in this case means "sino". "No te amo a ti sino a él"
I can't give you a lingo on the app but thank you so much ! The explanation is really clear.
That sentence sounds really awkward in English, I'd rather say "I don't love you, but I love him" (which duolingo didn't accept). Does the sentence sound more natural in Swedish?
1494
'I don't love you, but I love him' would be Jag älskar inte dig men jag älskar honom, so that's a different sentence.
- 328
Yes, a different sentence, but translation isn't supposed to be literal, it's supposed to find an idiomatic equivalent in the other language. Please read Grossman's book Why Translation Matters.
It's interesting seeing one of those sentences that actually translates better if you keep the English word order the same as the Swedish: "I love not you, but him." With "I don't love you, but him," the "but him" part feels disconnected.
I think "I do not love you but rather him" is a closer translation - for this sentence anyway. Utan does not always need the clarifying word rather, but this sentence is certainly odd without it. I tried it out just now and it isn't accepted so I guess the mods have their reasons for not including this. (They seem to be completely onto any potentially better phrasing that is not problematic for actually teaching us Swedish! Edit - in fact I see just below that "but rather" translates more literally to "utan snarare" so presumably that is why this translation is not accepted.)
Yeah, the English is a little awkward, but I can't think of a better way to translate it and teach that utan is "but".
- 328
add "I love" as in "but I do love him." Perfectly acceptable English, and not awkward.
Have you heard the audio? To my Norwegian ears, this certainly sounds more like "without him" than "but him"
Definitely. Marking this for a re-recording in a couple of days.
"Utan" is used in situations where there is negation (inte) in the main clause. Typically the information in the but clause is in opposition to that in the primary clause. For example : Hon dricker inte öl, utan kaffe. She is not drinking beer, but coffee.
"Men" is used when there is no negation. Typically the information in the but clause is additive. For example: Jag tycker om kaffe, men jag älskar te. I like coffee, but I love tea.
Looks we have inte when men is used in this sentence "Den hunden är inte svart men mörkbrun". How about that ?
I think it is more natural for them to use "utan" when you have a negation in the first sentence " jag älskar INTE dig"....and this is the only way (negation in the first sentence!!) you can use utan with the meaning of men. Otherwise you just use it to say "without".
Because that's the way Swedish works to express that part of what English can use the word but for.
Re-recording
The voice is not quite perfect on this sentence, as of October 19th, 2017, so I've taken the liberty of re-recording it.
As noted by some in the comments, utan can also mean "without", and the meaning is determined by the stress in this case. The word honom should be stressed to get the right meaning.
Please find a correct recording on http://duolingo.vydea.io/4e1b7a89eefc4342b18e699b29b4c6bc.mp3
For more info on re-recordings, please check the info thread: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/23723515
Thanks for listening. Ha en bra dag! :)
- 1581
There must be a problem with the sentence. Negated is the verb "love", and "but" suggests that an alternative to that verb follows, so it should be something like "I do not love you, but I care about you". If we want to keep "him" as the alternative, then "you" should be negated in the first part, i.e. it should be something like "I love not you, but him". This is accepted as a correct translation, but I wonder if the original Swedish sentence actually say that (i.e. if it negates "you" rather than "love" in the first part).
I've always found this sentence translation a bit awkward myself. Thank you for your insight, Tim.
Wiktionary has good usage notes about utan. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/utan#Usage_notes
It also has a more clear example, using an intransitive verb: Huset är inte rött utan blått -> The house is not red but blue.
I agree the current English translation is a little weird, using the auxiliary verb form English prefers when negating transitive verbs, while not supplying a new verb for the second half. Your suggested translation, "I love not you, but him," sounds much nicer to my ears. Although I think many English speakers would find that form archaic, it certainly is correct, and an improvement over the default translation. I think to love might actually be the best verb to use in this form, given the well-known phrase "He loves me, he loves me not."
My suggestion for Duolingo would be to add an utan lesson using an intransitive verb, where the translation is clear and modern, then switch the default translation of this sentence to "I love not you, but him."
- 1581
Well, in "the house is not red but blue" negated is "red", rather than "is". At least that's how I understand it.
If you want to negate "love", the Swedish sentence would be "Jag älskar dig inte".
- 1581
So what you're saying is that in "Jag älskar inte dig, utan honom" negated is "dig". If that is so indeed, then English translation would be "I love not you, but him", while "I don't love you, but him" would be incorrect.
Yes!
Note that "utan" also can mean "without":
utan socker - without sugar - sin azúcar
Perhaps that is the literal translation but "but rather" makes more sense (in this sentence) in English. The sentence as it stands above barely means anything. At best it is very old fashioned dialect.
The spoken melody at "utan honom" makes the sentence mean "I dont love you without him".
Why doesn't this mean "I don't love you without him?" (perhaps a ABBA fan's response to the prospect of the band reforming without Benny)
Well, the comma indicates that it can't have that meaning, since that wouldn't make sense. But also, I don't really think it's feasible enough to show as a translation. :)
- 1372
Yeah, we should only have commonly used sentences like "help, the horse ate the holy potato" (from the German course).
Utan means without, which suggests a negative, so we're "matching negatives"??
With "jag älskar dig inte", "älskar" is stressed and with "jag älskar inte dig", "dig" is stressed. So, when adding "utan honom" it makes more sense to stress "dig".
The way this is phrased it makes it sound as though it's impossible to love two people.
I do not love you, but I love him -that's a right thinking :)!
Jag älskar inte dig, men han gör det = I don't love you, but he does
There are two different "utan":
- Preposition: kaffe utan socker - coffee without sugar
- Conjunction: jag vill inte åka till New York utan till Oslo - I don't want to go to New York but to Oslo
If you wanted to say "I love you but not him" ( maybe 'I invite you but not him' would be a better example but idk how to say "invite" in swedish xD) would you still use 'utan' instead of 'men'? Like "Jag älskar dig utan han inte/inte han (?)"?
Jag älskar dig men inte honom.
You can't use utan here because that's only in response to inferred negatives, most often a statement using inte.
Although I heard it at the first time of recording, I had to listen once more, because at the first time I didnt believed...
- 328
I don't love you, but I love him should be accepted because "I love" is not only implied, it's more idiomatic.
Seems to me that "utan" in this instance is used like "instead". I donr love you, instead, (i love) him.
I'd personally go for "but rather", but "instead" works here as well. :)
"I don't love you but him" - marked wrong (20/5/2020) for some reason, reported.
That's odd - it's definitely accepted, and there is no report from you.
My comment should read: I was going to report it, I was bent on reporting it right after posting my comment, got back to the question, and... clicked enter by accident, so I should have reported it... but didn't (so that explains the missing report - sorry)
As to the first part, though, it is odd, I literally copy-pasted my answer here. The only difference between the official answer and mine that I can see is the contracted form and the comma. As far as I remember the programme cares little about punctuation, so I doubt it's the missing comma. Anecdotally, I once had a somewhat similar contraction-related problem in the Russian course. Anyway, if you're saying it should have been accepted I don't really know what went wrong here.
It isn't impossible that this heart-breaking revelation and I will meet again some day. When we do, having shed a tear or two, I will type the same phrase (contracted don't, no comma), and see what happens. Thanks for your reaction!
Ah, that explains it. :)
The system does screw up at times, so I'm certainly never ruling a bug out.
I thought utan meant without, or does it have two meanings? Otherwise this doesn't make much sense to native English speakers.
- 1041
The word utan has many meanings and uses. Duo teaches the most common meanings quite often and then begins to touch on other uses. Think about word usage in English.
Without in English can mean "outside." It can mean "externally." It can mean "unless." It can be a noun meaning "an outer place or area."
Utan is similar: https://ne.ord.se/ordbok/svenska/engelska/sök/utan
I think "rather" should be accepted her as a translation. "I do not love you, rather him."
