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"Credo che me lo sarei ricordata."

Translation:I think I would have remembered it.

August 8, 2013

50 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lexm
  • 508

I thought that a direct object overrules the subject in these cases, i.e. should it not be ricordato to agree with 'lo' some examples I found

mi sono lavata i denti
me li sono lavati

i bambini si sono lavati le mani
se le sono lavate


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/caroil

I am living and learning Italian in Italy and I asked a native about this. She said when the verb uses avere, the past participle agrees with the direct object pronoun (object). When the verb uses essere then the past participle agrees with the subject (the first of the double object pronoun). Fun!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Keith352848

The Italians could not have made their grammar any more confusing if they had tried...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dnovinc

Yes, I agree. It should be ricordato.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lhpch

Here the subject is female, and the reflexive verb agrees with the subject regardless of the masculine object. All verbs using the essere auxiliary agree with the subject.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lexm
  • 508

Since you have obviously read dnovinc's excellent comment, perhaps you could explain why your comment 'and the reflexive verb agrees with the subject regardless of the masculine object' seems at odds with 'If a direct object pronoun precedes the verb, however, the past participle agrees with it rather than with the subject.' taken from the site he referenced. This site http://www.coerll.utexas.edu/ra/pdf/ra_12.pdf expresses this point rather more strongly, 'Beware the power of the direct object pronoun! Even when a verb is being used pronominally, a third-person direct object pronoun trumps all other rules of past participle agreement.'


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

It's my understanding that you have to separate participles into two groups: those conjugated in compound tense with avere and those conjugated with essere. Agreement of the participle with the direct object, if present, has to do only with avere verbs. essere verbs, reflexive or not, require agreement of the participle with the subject (which is always present). It's that simple.

The presence of a direct object pronoun has no effect on gender and/or number of the essere participle, which always agrees with the subject.

The reflexive pronoun is always going to be in agreement with the subject - if it weren't, it wouldn't be a reflexive pronoun, and it wouldn't be a reflexive verb. The presence of the reflexive pronoun has no effect on agreement of the participle with the subject. Or, you could say that the reflexive pronoun reinforces the agreement, since that pronoun will always be in agreement with the subject.

If you can provide a link to an example of where a participle conjugated with essere agrees with the direct object rather than a subject of different gender or number from the direct object, I'd actually like to see it. The first rule language should be that there's always a damn exception.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dave-ashby

This is an excellent discussion, but I am still not sure which argument is correct.

Lexm's link does give an example where a participle conjugated with essere agrees with the direct object rather than a subject of different gender:

"Le attrici si sono messe i costumi? Sì, se li sono messi". (I.e. messi to agree with li, not with the subject le attrici).

Assuming that is correct, then I'd have to conclude that sometimes the third-person object does override the subject, even with essere as the auxiliary. So, perhaps it should be ricordato in this case.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

How do we know the subject is female? Is it because the voice is that of a woman? I have gone with that assumption in the past and I believe I was not always graded as correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stevecaicco

Because the past partciple (ricordataj ends in “a.” With essere the ending must agree with the subject in gender (and number).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

Yes, I understand the accord once you credit the subject is feminine. But what is your tip off that the subject Io is feminine in the first place. If I am male (io) then would it not be "che me lo sarei ricordato" for which I was graded wrong ? The tip off can't be the " a" in ricordata. Once given the "a" on ricordata yes, the subject is feminine, but I believe that is a teleological argument.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stevecaicco

I can’t help you other than to point out that lo isn’t the subject, its the object (the “it” in the sentence). I may not understand the original question since the “sarei ricordata” above is clearly a feminine construction. Perhaps some of the many other answers may help.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/carolynn357728

Thank you Steve, that helps. I am more mindful now that me ricordare is a reflexive verb so the "io " or in this case "me" is as you say the indirect object. I believe the actual object, the direct object is lo. I would have recalled it to myself being the literal translation. The first time I saw this sentence it was not written in Italian. I was asked to translate from the English. So I don't know how I am to know the subject is feminine. I wrote "Credo che me sarei lo ricordato" and was marked wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stevecaicco

That explains things. Yes, I agree if you first see this in English, you can’t know the gender (unless the voice counts). I think It was presented to me in Italian, so it was obvious (now, not then as I recall).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnNa905498

I actually got really confused about this sentence, because the voice was male. So clearly we cannot assume the subjects gender based on the voice used


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Viaggiatore

MR say that "in more formal styles" it is possible to have the participle agree with the object rather than with the subject. I'm not sure where that leaves us.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

This one was tricky and the feminine ending threw me


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fuhrmann8

That UVM link is an excellent explainer. Stupid question, maybe, but if it's reflective, why is it "me" and not the usual "mi"? Could we all (including the computer) be mis-translating, and really the verb ricordare here means REMIND? Probably not...just a guess


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Wobjam
  • 1721

It's "me" because it comes before "lo" ("mi" + "lo", "la" etc changes to "me"). And nope, ricordare doesn't mean remind here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

I think it changes to "me" because of the "lo"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dave-ashby

That link now needs a password, unfortunately.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eriktillema

As far as I know, we can use the verb ricordare (remember) in two ways:

  • ricordare qualcosa/qualcuno. This is a Transitive verb thus taking a direct object.
  • ricordarsi di qualcosa/qualcuno. This is a Reflexive verb (of the type where the subject is the same as the direct object) and 'di qualcosa/qualcuno' is NOT the direct object (since it has the word 'di' between the verb and the object). It's also not the indirect object.

In this DL sentence, it's obvious that the second form of ricordare is used. But in that case, 'it' (I mean the thing that is being remembered), in Italian, is NOT the direct object. So it cannot be put as 'lo' in front of the verb. It should have been:

Credo che me NE sarei ricordato (or ricordata if the speaker is a woman)

where NE is the reference to 'di qualcosa'.

Am I right to say that this sentence is just incorrect Italian? Or am I missing something here?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sandrabruck

I believe that you are right. The sentence is wrong.

Edit: the sentence is correct. because it exists a less used transitive "ricordarsi" ricordasi qualcosa...

Mi ricordo di mio zio = me ne ricordo

Mi ricordo la festa = me la ricordo

The form is less used and a little bit strange.. as you can see at the fact that the "direct object pronoun" in a compost tense doesn't agree with the past participle.

It's a language.. it's always evolving..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eriktillema

Thank you! If I didn't have you.... :-p

In case the sentence for some reason turns out to be correct anyway, please let me know!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sandrabruck

Okay, i did a research on my own and (unfortunately) I found in the Treccani that now a "transitive" use of "ricordarsi" is very frequent and that in this case it's not the "si" reflexive but a kind of "si" that expresses "involvement" or "solicitousness" and in the case of "ricordarsi" and "sbagliarsi" and "dimenticarsi" that you do it deliberately/ intentionally... (you forced yourself to non forget it)

Source:

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/verbi-riflessivi_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/

(2.6 altri casi)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eriktillema

* face palm *

ok.... so some sources say that there is a third way of using ricordare:

  • ricordarsi qualcosa/qualcuno. Transitive and Reflexive (subject is the same as the indirect object).

If that form was used by DL, then it is correct again...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sandrabruck

The Italian native speakers told me the same I read in the Treccani article about the different forms of "ricordare/ricordarsi"

  • ricordare X (direct object)

  • ricordarsi di x (indirect object, would be replaced by "ne"

  • ricordarsi X (direct object)) as in this sentence

But being a transitive verb with a direct object directly after the word which could be replaced by a direct object pronoun this verb is not an exception of what I saw in the "clitic" posting...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stuart.hol2

While the discussion above is well above my comprehension (I barely understand the words in English let alone Italian) this is something I'm sure can be answered - why is credo here I think rather than I believe? I know they are similar but I don't think the two options have been accepted before this section?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SineadWhitty1

Simply because "i believe" is more formal...a little bit more for literature than for speaking and general conversation, or when talking about faith.

"credo che tu abbia ragione" "i think you're right" (i believe you're right, is not incorrect, however it has a more formal tone and is less used) hope this helps


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RichardWei19

Why credo and not penso?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nan992093

Sandrabruck, could you please elaborate on your answer below (sorry, DL didn't offer the option of replying to it directly), by giving examples of each of these three uses of ricordare, specifically in compound form?

  1. ricordare X (direct object)

  2. ricordarsi di x (indirect object, would be replaced by "ne"

  3. ricordarsi X (direct object)) as in this sentence

I'm not at all clear on when ricordato/a should agree with the subject and when with the direct object pronoun. If the DL sentence here is an instance of #3, wouldn't the participle agree with "lo," since it is the direct object or is it the use of essere that has it agreeing with the subject, even though the meaning is transitive?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

Nobody seems to be distinguishing between ricordare = "to remind" and ricordare/ricordarsi = "to remember".

It is possible for ricordare to look reflexive when it is not. lei me l'ha ricordata is correct, I believe: "She reminded me of (feminine) it", although I think it would probably involve di after the verb instead of the pronoun before it.

When reflexive, the verb takes essere (participle agrees with subject) rather than avere (particple agrees with any direct object). When not reflexive, it takes avere.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mico_di_Ostia

Adding the "that" to the translation should not cause it to be marked incorrect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John955060

Excuse me, but I BELIEVE that"credo" means "I believe", and "penso" means "I think". So... I THINK that "I believe" should have been accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/divaluisa

I'm still questioning "me" instead of "mi" as reflexive pronoun. And, how do we know the subject is feminine. If we used ricordato it would be masculine. No?
"Lo" and "ricordata" don't match.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ewcrider

The reflexive pronoun behaves like the indirect object pronoun, in that its form changes when used before a direct object pronoun. Basically, change the "i" to an "e". so mi->me, ti->te, si->se and so on. So you'd have "me lo", but not "mi lo".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TiltET

Aha. This is the answer to my question: why is "mi sarei ricordato del tuo sorriso" corretto, and "credo che mi lo sarei ricardato..." is not correct. A bit difficult, since in English "mi" seems to me to translate "to me" (reflexive). But that's language, of course.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Caterinabella

I think that the "me" in the sentence is what confused me. I'd have got it if it were "Credo che lo sarei ricordata" Gotta keep practicing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/headlesscookie

Is there any problem with using "would've" over "would have"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

not at all, in speech, but we have a computer marking us so may not accept it


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/headlesscookie

OK, thank you so much!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeffrey855877

I got the sentence wrong for other reasons, but the "right" answer Duo gave me was with the verb form "would've".

That is no guarantee by any means, that Duo would accept "would've", because Duo is fickle like that.

I never use contractions for anything. You will always get it right if you don't use them, and you may get it wrong if do, even though technically it is correct.

Kind of a rule of Duo etiquette.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JenLovesSpanish

If I thinks is at the end of sentence it should be correct!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Keith352848

So, may I say, "Credo che l'avrei ricordato," and be done with it?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MichaelASm314026

Why is it credo and not penso for I think?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

Similar to usage in English, I believe, in the sense that I think


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MichaelASm314026

I am still struggling to understand the difference between a transitive and intransitive verb and thus when to use the avere form or the essere form. In this sentence I would have guessed that "remembered" is a transitive verb because "it" would be a direct object to it and "remembered" is an action acting on "it". But clearly I have once again not assessed these words correctly and still do not have a good understanding of what the difference between a transitive and intransitive verb is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/confusedbeetle

I may be wrong but there are two verbs, ricordare and ricordarsi. So in this case it isnt about transitive or intransitive. A reflexive verb will always take essere

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