"Credo che me lo sarei ricordata."

Translation:I think I would have remembered it.

August 8, 2013

43 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/lexm

I thought that a direct object overrules the subject in these cases, i.e. should it not be ricordato to agree with 'lo' some examples I found

mi sono lavata i denti
me li sono lavati

i bambini si sono lavati le mani
se le sono lavate

August 8, 2013

https://www.duolingo.com/caroil

I am living and learning Italian in Italy and I asked a native about this. She said when the verb uses avere, the past participle agrees with the direct object pronoun (object). When the verb uses essere then the past participle agrees with the subject (the first of the double object pronoun). Fun!

March 1, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Keith352848

The Italians could not have made their grammar any more confusing if they had tried...

June 4, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/dnovinc

Yes, I agree. It should be ricordato.

August 29, 2013

https://www.duolingo.com/lhpch

Here the subject is female, and the reflexive verb agrees with the subject regardless of the masculine object. All verbs using the essere auxiliary agree with the subject.

December 3, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/lexm

Since you have obviously read dnovinc's excellent comment, perhaps you could explain why your comment 'and the reflexive verb agrees with the subject regardless of the masculine object' seems at odds with 'If a direct object pronoun precedes the verb, however, the past participle agrees with it rather than with the subject.' taken from the site he referenced. This site http://www.coerll.utexas.edu/ra/pdf/ra_12.pdf expresses this point rather more strongly, 'Beware the power of the direct object pronoun! Even when a verb is being used pronominally, a third-person direct object pronoun trumps all other rules of past participle agreement.'

December 3, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/Jeffrey855877

It's my understanding that you have to separate participles into two groups: those conjugated in compound tense with avere and those conjugated with essere. Agreement of the participle with the direct object, if present, has to do only with avere verbs. essere verbs, reflexive or not, require agreement of the participle with the subject (which is always present). It's that simple.

The presence of a direct object pronoun has no effect on gender and/or number of the essere participle, which always agrees with the subject.

The reflexive pronoun is always going to be in agreement with the subject - if it weren't, it wouldn't be a reflexive pronoun, and it wouldn't be a reflexive verb. The presence of the reflexive pronoun has no effect on agreement of the participle with the subject. Or, you could say that the reflexive pronoun reinforces the agreement, since that pronoun will always be in agreement with the subject.

If you can provide a link to an example of where a participle conjugated with essere agrees with the direct object rather than a subject of different gender or number from the direct object, I'd actually like to see it. The first rule language should be that there's always a damn exception.

June 20, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

How do we know the subject is female? Is it because the voice is that of a woman? I have gone with that assumption in the past and I believe I was not always graded as correct.

November 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/stevecaicco

Because the past partciple (ricordataj ends in “a.” With essere the ending must agree with the subject in gender (and number).

November 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

Yes, I understand the accord once you credit the subject is feminine. But what is your tip off that the subject Io is feminine in the first place. If I am male (io) then would it not be "che me lo sarei ricordato" for which I was graded wrong ? The tip off can't be the " a" in ricordata. Once given the "a" on ricordata yes, the subject is feminine, but I believe that is a teleological argument.

November 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/stevecaicco

I can’t help you other than to point out that lo isn’t the subject, its the object (the “it” in the sentence). I may not understand the original question since the “sarei ricordata” above is clearly a feminine construction. Perhaps some of the many other answers may help.

November 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/carolynn357728

Thank you Steve, that helps. I am more mindful now that me ricordare is a reflexive verb so the "io " or in this case "me" is as you say the indirect object. I believe the actual object, the direct object is lo. I would have recalled it to myself being the literal translation. The first time I saw this sentence it was not written in Italian. I was asked to translate from the English. So I don't know how I am to know the subject is feminine. I wrote "Credo che me sarei lo ricordato" and was marked wrong.

November 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/stevecaicco

That explains things. Yes, I agree if you first see this in English, you can’t know the gender (unless the voice counts). I think It was presented to me in Italian, so it was obvious (now, not then as I recall).

November 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Viaggiatore

MR say that "in more formal styles" it is possible to have the participle agree with the object rather than with the subject. I'm not sure where that leaves us.

August 29, 2013

https://www.duolingo.com/confusedbeetle

This one was tricky and the feminine ending threw me

March 8, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/fuhrmann8

That UVM link is an excellent explainer. Stupid question, maybe, but if it's reflective, why is it "me" and not the usual "mi"? Could we all (including the computer) be mis-translating, and really the verb ricordare here means REMIND? Probably not...just a guess

October 15, 2014

https://www.duolingo.com/Wobjam
  • 1172

It's "me" because it comes before "lo" ("mi" + "lo", "la" etc changes to "me"). And nope, ricordare doesn't mean remind here.

April 21, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/confusedbeetle

I think it changes to "me" because of the "lo"

February 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/eriktillema

As far as I know, we can use the verb ricordare (remember) in two ways:

  • ricordare qualcosa/qualcuno. This is a Transitive verb thus taking a direct object.
  • ricordarsi di qualcosa/qualcuno. This is a Reflexive verb (of the type where the subject is the same as the direct object) and 'di qualcosa/qualcuno' is NOT the direct object (since it has the word 'di' between the verb and the object). It's also not the indirect object.

In this DL sentence, it's obvious that the second form of ricordare is used. But in that case, 'it' (I mean the thing that is being remembered), in Italian, is NOT the direct object. So it cannot be put as 'lo' in front of the verb. It should have been:

Credo che me NE sarei ricordato (or ricordata if the speaker is a woman)

where NE is the reference to 'di qualcosa'.

Am I right to say that this sentence is just incorrect Italian? Or am I missing something here?

January 23, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/sandrabruck

I believe that you are right. The sentence is wrong.

Edit: the sentence is correct. because it exists a less used transitive "ricordarsi" ricordasi qualcosa...

Mi ricordo di mio zio = me ne ricordo

Mi ricordo la festa = me la ricordo

The form is less used and a little bit strange.. as you can see at the fact that the "direct object pronoun" in a compost tense doesn't agree with the past participle.

It's a language.. it's always evolving..

January 23, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/eriktillema

Thank you! If I didn't have you.... :-p

In case the sentence for some reason turns out to be correct anyway, please let me know!

January 23, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/sandrabruck

Okay, i did a research on my own and (unfortunately) I found in the Treccani that now a "transitive" use of "ricordarsi" is very frequent and that in this case it's not the "si" reflexive but a kind of "si" that expresses "involvement" or "solicitousness" and in the case of "ricordarsi" and "sbagliarsi" and "dimenticarsi" that you do it deliberately/ intentionally... (you forced yourself to non forget it)

Source:

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/verbi-riflessivi_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/

(2.6 altri casi)

January 23, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/eriktillema

* face palm *

ok.... so some sources say that there is a third way of using ricordare:

  • ricordarsi qualcosa/qualcuno. Transitive and Reflexive (subject is the same as the indirect object).

If that form was used by DL, then it is correct again...

January 23, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/sandrabruck

The Italian native speakers told me the same I read in the Treccani article about the different forms of "ricordare/ricordarsi"

  • ricordare X (direct object)

  • ricordarsi di x (indirect object, would be replaced by "ne"

  • ricordarsi X (direct object)) as in this sentence

But being a transitive verb with a direct object directly after the word which could be replaced by a direct object pronoun this verb is not an exception of what I saw in the "clitic" posting...

January 23, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/stuart.hol2

While the discussion above is well above my comprehension (I barely understand the words in English let alone Italian) this is something I'm sure can be answered - why is credo here I think rather than I believe? I know they are similar but I don't think the two options have been accepted before this section?

December 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/SineadWhitty1

Simply because "i believe" is more formal...a little bit more for literature than for speaking and general conversation, or when talking about faith.

"credo che tu abbia ragione" "i think you're right" (i believe you're right, is not incorrect, however it has a more formal tone and is less used) hope this helps

March 10, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nan992093

Sandrabruck, could you please elaborate on your answer below (sorry, DL didn't offer the option of replying to it directly), by giving examples of each of these three uses of ricordare, specifically in compound form?

  1. ricordare X (direct object)

  2. ricordarsi di x (indirect object, would be replaced by "ne"

  3. ricordarsi X (direct object)) as in this sentence

I'm not at all clear on when ricordato/a should agree with the subject and when with the direct object pronoun. If the DL sentence here is an instance of #3, wouldn't the participle agree with "lo," since it is the direct object or is it the use of essere that has it agreeing with the subject, even though the meaning is transitive?

February 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Jeffrey855877

Nobody seems to be distinguishing between ricordare = "to remind" and ricordare/ricordarsi = "to remember".

It is possible for ricordare to look reflexive when it is not. lei me l'ha ricordata is correct, I believe: "She reminded me of (feminine) it", although I think it would probably involve di after the verb instead of the pronoun before it.

When reflexive, the verb takes essere (participle agrees with subject) rather than avere (particple agrees with any direct object). When not reflexive, it takes avere.

June 20, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/RichardWei19

Why credo and not penso?

October 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Berto29441

The mistake can be in the "lo" instead of "la"

November 7, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/MichaelWat541241

Adding the "that" to the translation should not cause it to be marked incorrect.

November 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/divaluisa

I'm still questioning "me" instead of "mi" as reflexive pronoun. And, how do we know the subject is feminine. If we used ricordato it would be masculine. No?
"Lo" and "ricordata" don't match.

January 6, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/ewcrider

The reflexive pronoun behaves like the indirect object pronoun, in that its form changes when used before a direct object pronoun. Basically, change the "i" to an "e". so mi->me, ti->te, si->se and so on. So you'd have "me lo", but not "mi lo".

January 15, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/TiltET

Aha. This is the answer to my question: why is "mi sarei ricordato del tuo sorriso" corretto, and "credo che mi lo sarei ricardato..." is not correct. A bit difficult, since in English "mi" seems to me to translate "to me" (reflexive). But that's language, of course.

July 28, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/confusedbeetle

@ divaluisa me lo

February 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Caterinabella

I think that the "me" in the sentence is what confused me. I'd have got it if it were "Credo che lo sarei ricordata" Gotta keep practicing.

March 29, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/headlesscookie

Is there any problem with using "would've" over "would have"?

February 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/confusedbeetle

not at all, in speech, but we have a computer marking us so may not accept it

February 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/headlesscookie

OK, thank you so much!

February 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Jeffrey855877

I got the sentence wrong for other reasons, but the "right" answer Duo gave me was with the verb form "would've".

That is no guarantee by any means, that Duo would accept "would've", because Duo is fickle like that.

I never use contractions for anything. You will always get it right if you don't use them, and you may get it wrong if do, even though technically it is correct.

Kind of a rule of Duo etiquette.

June 20, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/JenLovesSpanish

If I thinks is at the end of sentence it should be correct!!

September 21, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Keith352848

So, may I say, "Credo che l'avrei ricordato," and be done with it?

February 14, 2018
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