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  5. "Hata an fhir."

"Hata an fhir."

Translation:The man's hat.

February 7, 2015

22 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danoconnell55

This feels backwards to me. "fir" = "men" and "fear" = "man" but in this case "fhir" = "man" and "bhfear" = "men"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IuileanMGabhann

Yup, in the first declension singular and plural forms simply get switched around in the genitive. Usually this simply involves slenderising the last consonant in the genitive singular and the nominative plural, occasionally the vowel changes as well (e.g. ‘fır’ from ‘fear’, ‘mıc’ from ‘mac’). There’s a reason for this too. The Proto-Celtic language had more pronounced case endings like Latin, which —depending on what vowel they contained— would ‘broaden’ or ‘slenderise’ the noun stem. The Irish forms ‘fear’ (nom. sg.), ‘fır’ (gen. sg.), ‘fır’ (nom. pl.), ‘fear’ (gen. pl.) are respective cognates of Latin ‘vır’, ‘vırí’, ‘vırí’, ‘vırórum’ (the slender vowels ‘ı’ and ‘e’ slenderised preceding consonants and sometimes triggered a vowel change, while other vowels caused the original ‘broad’ form to be retained). In Old Irish, almost all words lost their final syllable, so that all these endings were either largely reduced (mainly to -a and -e) or completely lost, leaving behind only broad and slender consonants (and occasional vowel changes in the stem) at the end of nouns to mark the cases. That’s why the distribution of forms does not always seem to make much sense.

The same dropping of the final syllable of most words in Old Irish is also why Irish has unpredictable initial mutations: in Proto-Celtic these mutations were caused by a letter at the end of a preceding word, now lost, that interacted in a predictable way with the following consonant (the ‘h’ and ‘n-’ sometimes added before vowels are remnants of these consonants).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Em484950

The point-by-point comparison with Latin forms was very helpful indeed. Thank you for that.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MicheleTreCaffe

thanks very much for tbis exposition.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MacRaith

Thank you for this


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lamh-glas

GRMA for the eplanation but could ye break that down some more, what do ye mean by 'the first declension?' ..and what vowel in the sentence 'hata na fir' has caused 'the original broad form to be retained'?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RichardMik2

How would one say "a man's hat"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lostcarpark

The audio sound to me like "hata a-nyer". Is that universal or a dialectal pronounciation? I know "fh" is silent, but i would have expected to pronounced it "hata an ir".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gregory743155

In Irish, final sounds of words are run into the opening sound of the following word within a phrase (like in French). I don't think the silent letters which begin some words prevent that liaison from occurring.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bryji

How would one say "the men's hat" then?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Arthur339941

if one is not a native speaker, one's brain always interprets sounds within the phonemic framework of one's own language. Thus I very clearly hear this as "Hata an Yid" which I believe the Jews refer to as a kippah or a yarmulke.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Radoslaw182

I typed in The hat of the man. WROONG, why? ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/scilling

It’s not wrong, but “the man’s hat” is more colloquial in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TheCassifier

I'd like a site that does declensions for all nouns. Like where you enter a noun and it gets declented to each case like you'd see in Latin textbooks. BTW, how many declensions are there?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/19O492554

There is an outline of the declension system for Irish here:
http://nualeargais.ie/foghlaim/nouns.php

You can confirm the declension of any noun at teanglann.ie:
http://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/ainmfhocal


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MicheleTreCaffe

Why the lenition with 'an fhir'?

'f' eclipses to 'bhf' and lenites to 'fh'. In the genitive plural, we have 'na bhfear'. Should the singular not be 'an bhfir'?

...Come to think of it, there is also 'an mbuann' and 'ní thainim'.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/19O492554

Feminine nouns are lenited after the singular definite article an in the nominative case.
Masculine nouns are lenited after the singular definite article an in the genitive case.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kayo222

I would never pronounce fhir the way she does when looking at the word. Any tips for pronouncing words (m'na took me a long time to figure out, because I hear an /r/ sound)

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