my feeling towards XP reduction
As on of the lucky or unlucky (based one how you look at it) I was one of the test subject for the XP reduction and I would like to share my thoughts about it:
1- I think it is a great idea to differentiate between new and revised lessons but I guess the current numbers are too severe ( 3 XP/revision means that I need to finish 7 revisions just to reach my daily goal of 20XP).
2-We must consider the fact that new duolingo users will never be able to bring high XP like the ones who did revisions before the XP reduction (i.e. if my friend have like +2000XP from revising 200 times in his life, I would need like 667 revisions or (50 new lessons + 500 revisions) just to reach him, which is unfair to people who try to catch up with old users.
3- Since one of the reasons for the XP reduction is the XP races held by teachers, it would be more appropriate to do a solution that suites both teachers, students who abuse the system and typical users and here is an example of a solution -it is just a suggestion :) - - For each day the XP for revision for each skill is 9 but repeating the same revision will make it drop to 7 then 5 then 3. but, it goes back to 10 in the next day [i.e. if I wanted to go through each lesson (1 to 5) of basic-I (assuming it is revision) i would earn 9+7+5+3+3=27] This way the XP would be less than the 105=50XP but it will not as low as 35=15XP -I guess this suggestion will benefit everyone because it will encourage students to revise, but at the same time encourages them to revise different topics (instead of grinding one topic) since changing the topic will result in earning 9XP
Sorry for the long post :)
It is really a pity to have penalties on revisions. Revision is a most important part of language learning, and, this way, the children will just not revise. It will be even worse. The solution is not on Duolingo, but in avoiding making XP races.
I think it sucks. People should not be punished for trying to learn. The system keeps becoming more and more demotivational. When the hearts existed and there was a chance for a lingot I used to take notes and look works up. I spent max time on the lessons with the hearts system. Taking that away, it didn't really matter and the lessons could drone on ad-infinitum which could be really annoying on busy days.
Today, under this system, I'm barely remembering to do a daily lesson. I have more non-golden lessons than I've ever had before. I used to always have a duolingo window/tab up on my personal laptop at home all the time and now I barely care one way or the other.
Why are we catering to people (students) who "cheat" the system??? It doesn't sound like those are the types of people who will eventually be doing a lot of the translation which, ultimately, is what keeps duolingo running.
A big motivating factor for me is that it was like a game and when I play a game I like to eventually get better at it over time. Increased proficiency used to mean I could gain more experience in 10 minutes today than I could in 10 minutes 2 months ago.
For me, repetition is ESSENTIAL to proficiency. I can muddle my way through a series of lessons to make a skill golden but that hardly indicates any great level of proficiency and who's to say how much repetition any one individual needs in order to become proficient. I might need to review and redo a lesson 100 times to really start to get it where as someone else might only need to do it 10 times.
First and foremost each day, I would review. If I had time then I could use the golden or not golden lessons as a guide to where I might go after reviewing the more fundamental material.
Right now, I could easily sit on the lessons and vocabulary I've "learned" thus far for the next several months and do nothing but review because there is a lot more beyond simply knowing what an individual word means.
and, by the way - is it just me or has anybody else noticed that the support tab that used to be found along the sides of the lessons no longer exist?
and, I wonder - should duolingo now put asterisk by any current users with levels above 20 since most of those XP points were obtained back when the game was on steroids?
I find it motivating to get a decent number of points, and I do think revising should be encouraged. It was a surprise how demotivating it is not getting a full number of points for re-gilding a leaf! Revision is so essential, I think, if anything, it should bring extra points. Surely what school children do should be their teachers' responsibility. Can't they test the pupils? Accepting a points figure doesn't seem very effective,
You bring up some interesting points, DrScott, especially that of repetition. I agree that review should be worth more points. If you're not familiar with memrise, they have a really good system that gives you about 3x the points to review something after so long than to learn it in the first place. I think that's extraordinarily helpful because, frankly, I find review tedious, but when you slap on bonus points it feels like I'm accomplishing more (and I am).
I don't know that people are so much trying to cater to students who "cheat the system" so much as suggest a more agreeable way to hinder those students without hurting the person actually trying to learn. I know I've had perfectly valid (and pretty good, if I may say it without sounding braggy) translations redone by other people who clearly just wanted to XP for them. This was really discouraging to me (and not to mention annoying) and made me stay way from translations for quite a while. If I understand it correctly, they're trying to find a way to make that sort of thing less likely to happen.
As for the motivational stuff you brought up, I think it can go both ways. Because I'm trying to learn a language quickly and with a goal of fluency, I use a lot of other tools, too. (I find that for learning quickly and adequately I need more than Duolingo at this point--as an aside inside this aside [we could call that a "subaside" or an "alongaside"--which makes that "subinaside" and this a "subalonginaside"? =) Sorry for the digression, I couldn't resist... ;)], I'd love to see [and possibly help] make this not have to be the case somewhere down the road.) Since I am using other methods of learning along with Duolingo, I find the new system without hearts to be much more motivating; I don't have to keep repeating lessons because I accidentally typed things too quickly or just needed to review a word once more to have it in long-term memory. At first I was skeptical about it, myself, but I've kept coming back ever since they started that, and I at least feel like I'm finally making progress (I know I am in spite of skill level and whatnot--I can have short conversations in Portuguese now--woohoo!). So, I kind of like it.
Yes, I recently noticed that the "Support" tab was missing from the lessons, too. I assumed that they figured they had the language debugged enough that they didn't need it anymore. As to why it really went away, perhaps somebody higher up can clear up the speculation. (Anybody?) =)
And, as for the XP part, I guess it depends on the person. I don't really care what level other people are; I just figure they're all greater at achieving their language goals and look forward to when I can join them someday, hahaha.
Good points you brought up. Do check out memrise if you haven't; it's worth a try until Duo implements some better ways to repeat and retain stuff (which I am guessing is in the works). Really, they've already improved on that: if I recall correctly, when they first started to go public in 2012 you only had to complete a lesson once for it to remain golden forever. x)
Hi FJoyB :)
I've been using memrise to get a start on Russian since it isn't available on duolingo yet.
Cool. I would like to add Russian to my repertoire someday... =)
Meanwhile, I noticed that the "Support" tab is back on my lessons. And, come to think of it, I think it has been. I am thinking that perhaps they took it off the Spanish stuff and I noticed it when I was doing that. If you find any pattern like that, I'd be curious to know what you find out about where it goes/went, etc.
I like your suggestion a lot. It seems to provide the same sort of disincentive for repeating the same lesson over and over without having such a negative effect on those of us who keep our trees mostly gold. Nice thought, hope the team considers something like that.
I usually extend my streak just before I go to sleep and then I don't have to worry about it. Really, I don't even think about it much anymore, it's just part of my routine. It also helps if you don't have a social life :)
There's a bunch of other users with long streaks listed here if you're interested.
And this exact reaction is why I think it's a bad idea. I don't know that I neeeed more revision than what Duo says, but I progress more consistently when I do more than Duo says. The XP or not doesn't really effect me, as long as I get my daily 10 I'm happy, but I see people getting discouraged or ending up racing on faster than is optimal, and those are both bad things.
It does seem odd that they want to discourage repetition and yet my golden skills seem to be decaying faster than they ever have before.
I do definitely question the wisdom of trying to tailor the system to people who are trying to cheat it. There are better ways than XP for teachers to keep tabs on their students, and it's quite discouraging for serious learners who regularly revise and are now being penalised because of the actions of the few.
I also really hope DL keeps records of who does lessons on the app versus the site. I discovered, when I experimented, that I am part of the test group according to the website, but I usually use DL via the app, and I still get the full whack of XP on there. Since I mostly use the app, counting my habits as part of the test group would be really misleading.
Since one of the reasons for the XP reduction is the XP races held by teachers, it would be more appropriate to do a solution that suites both teachers, students who abuse the system
Do we know this for sure, or is it just an assumption? I have no problem making intelligent guesses as to why duolingo may be doing something (I do it all the time), but you aren't the first user to present this as fact, so I was wondering if we knew this for sure, or is it just a guess?
I did follow a link in another thread which connected to a post by a teacher asking if duolingo could diminish the XP for repeat attempts so I know the request is out there but I have no idea if that is why the XP was recently reduced. The reason the teacher cited was due to the XP races they have in their classrooms.
there's just so much to learn on any level that to me, it seems futile to simply plow ahead as fast as I can. That would give me a lot of exposure but very little mastery or understanding.
Thanks for your answer. I saw that too but wasn't convinced that was the reason Duolingo made the change, but anything is possible!
I had just seen a few post that presented it as fact, I was wondering if I missed something.