I Don't Think People Like the New XP System.
Aside from the normal complaints (DL is catering to lazy teachers, students) about the new XP system where you won't necessarily get 10 XP after a session, I think there is another indicator that people don't like it. On the home page of the discussion tabs, there is a sticky that Luis posted announcing the new feature. Now normally anything Luis posts gets upvoted into triple digits, and I assume many people won't even read it but just assume its good so they upvote. I went to bed last night and it had ~95 upvotes but now it only has 86. I think this really shows people don't appreciate the new feature and maybe their lack of responses to our complaints about it. What do you guys think?
Not only does it only have ~75 upvotes, but the top comment, which disputes every "reason" they gave for the so-called "helpful" change, has ~340. I think that's a clear indication that they need to revert back.
This is so true. That pinkdoug (I thank thats how you spell it) ripped Luis apart. And all of what he said is true. Concluding its more effective after one week is a tiny sample size and implies they wanted to find that. Also, DL never tells us if there is something new going on (except for new languages). Its really annoying.
Also, DL never tells us if there is something new going on (except for new languages). Its really annoying.
Honestly, this is how you do it. If you tell people what you are testing, it will always influence your A/B test negatively and will always lead to an inconclusive result. That's why they never tell us what's going on and that's totally fine.
The rest of what you are saying is absolutely correct, though.
Wouldn't the fact that dozens of people are posting about some change and other people replying how nothing has changed, tell us that there is an AB test going on and what the feature being tested is?
The number of people that actually visit the dissuasion forums is a small percentage of learners. Or at least that's what I've read here in the forums.
That's probably true, but I think KansasBurri meant the staff rarely posts about current AB tests and wasn't exactly expecting them to highlight the changes on the interface.
True. I haven't been in the discussion forums for a couple months, due to the fact that I've been so immersed in starting Italian. But I came here just now because -- you guessed it -- I don't like the new XP system for refreshing lessons that I first encountered yesterday, and I wanted to see what was going on.
For me, the new XP system is a disincentive for refreshing lessons. When I refresh a lesson I like to do it at least twice to reinforce the relearning. Yesterday I refreshed an Italian lesson that was not golden, and got only 4 XP. What a letdown. I did it again and got 3 XP. I received only 7 xp for doing 2 lessons, instead of the usual 20 xp. I have my Coach set at 30 xp/day. I need to depend on 10 xp per lesson, because some days it's all I can do to complete the last lesson just before midnight. If I can't depend on receiving a definite amount of xp for a given amount of work, I will have to reset my Coach to the minimum 10 xp.
I don't see the post by Luis that you all are talking about. Has it been removed? [EDIT] Nevermind, I have the link now thanks to Fazac.
Now it has 45 upvotes and the first post in Discussion "Οpen letter to Duolingo team and Dr. Luis" which is against the new change has 180 upvotes. I guess now its time they go back in their office and make some changes.
Update: The score is:
"Fewer XP for practicing stronger words" by Luis = 47 upvotes. "Open latter to the Duolingo Team and Dr. Luis" by chrigko = 213 upvotes.
Interesting to see that Luis's post is no longer a sticky….. removed as it wasn't getting the response they wanted maybe??
It was just meant as a formal communication of the change. I guess, the purpose it served.
When you hit level 25 it no longer matters. I`m just glad I got there before this new system kicked in. I do 5 strengthening exercises each day and will continue to do so as long as I feel the need. I will not do more just to reach 50 XP as I was getting. I just feel sorry for those people trying to reach the higher levels that have now had a new obstacle placed in their way. It is easy to say points and levels do not matter but the whole point of duolingo was to bring a game like atmosphere to learning. If you place the game out of reach for too many it fails as a learning tool as people give up. My suggestion is to bring back the old system and give a lingot for completing an exercise perfectly. Is that too much to ask?
I loved receiving 2 lingots for the Full Heart Bonus. I used to repeat each lesson until I got it perfect., sometimes 2 or 3 times.
The A/B test was way too short. 1 week. And even if that was long enough, a lot of the feedback I saw in Discussion was negative. I've already set my Daily goal to 1XP.
A great thing for Duolingo to have done would have been to have a survey just like the one that they had a week ago, asking about your Duolingo experience. That would have shown them the negative responses that people had toward the change
Luis' post is down to 47 upvotes. Why don't they switch back the XP change after all this negative feedback?
The feedback the team's interested in would be metrics around usage, engagement, progress, etc. and may not take into account much of what's posted in the forums.
My goal is to learn German. And, I am so grateful for the opportunity to do so "for free". I learnt more in the past 40 days then I learnt in the several years I tried doing so with other methods. I have been confused, right from the beginning, with the XP system. Since Duolingo is free, I let it be.
Unfortunately it these changes effect the lives of 70 million people. You have to let a company or organization know how you feel. I majored in applied mathematics and I can tell you that numbers and formulas don't tell you everything.
My guess is DL setup a study, to get what they wanted. Got the result they predicted and made a change. That doesn't take into account the huge negative consequences we are seeing. That is why you run a longer test and also take in multiple factors.
It is unfortunate, but if we speak out we can right the wrong.
I do wish for everyone to be happy. Let's hope that Duolingo will be receptive to the users' preferences. They may want statistics on the impact it has whenever they make changes. I wish we knew what really motivated them.
Except you forget the fact that Duolingo has horrible communication issues with its users. Makes for a huge headache.
The top comment by pinkodoug has 300 upvotes. There is a serious backlash by the community on this one. It's pretty likely that this feature was introduced at the request of teachers on Duolingo for Schools to facilitate lazy teaching practices. I'm just kinda surprised how universally negative the reaction was to this feature. This is a good opportunity for Luis and the other Duolingo staff to clarify some things and hopefully roll back the change.
Well, even a lot of the teachers using Duolingo are opposed, because they're actually using the teacher dashboard to monitor the skills their students are working on, rather than just the XP they have earned.
I am interested to know, how many people have started using the app instead of web, in order to still get the 10 XPs.
I used the app yesterday. But it was back to the hearts system, which was frustrating.
I wonder if the sticky post will make it into the negatives.
For you and other folks who liked the system, I wish Duolingo had more money and staff so there could be multiple options for it. (Though, I understand Duolingo's desire to simplify the interface. The wiki has more than 70 pages of instructions just for Duolingo's current interface.)
I don't think it's a money thing. From what I remember, duolingo has always said they just prefer the streamlined approach, and have found (through A/B testing, of course) that users perform better when they are given less options. Take that for what you will...
I meant money to hire an extended staff to work on making these things possible. Thanks for catching my drift in clarity though!
Agreed. Optional settings to configure each individual's preferences would be amazing.
I sure hope it goes negative! That would be fantastic! I upvoted initially just because it's an important change and I thought people should see it, but I switched to a downvote when I saw how far it had dropped.
It was just a question of curiosity, not necessarily a wish. I don't want to embarrass anyone who put a lot of time and positive into the changes.The staff at Duolingo work really hard at what they do. I just happen to disagree with the latest method rather strongly. :)
I got a great surprise today to see that a) FR-IT is on iOS now, b) there are new (and as far as I've seen improved) voice recognition exercises, and c) the hearts are back !!!! Needless to say I'm reverting to the app. The web interface on an ipad is frustrating enough as it is :-)
I would use the app except that it's only on my phone (I have no tablet) and I prefer touch typing on a keyboard.
It's pretty clear the majority people don't like. Which makes me surprised to see them pushing it so hard.
I must say that whilst I think it's a daft measure, I rarely, if ever, have the slightest idea how many points I have. How many of you keep an eye on your 'points'?
I have used the Duocheck thing a couple of times, out of curiosity for where I was at, but typically I don't notice how many XP I have. I only really keep an eye on whether my streak has registered for the day. I didn't realise I was near to a level boundary until Duo informed me I had passed it, and I totally missed the previous one even though the program tells you and gives you a handful of XP 8-o so I don't know quite how that passed me by. I couldn't even tell you what levels I was on without checking...
It's one of those things that doesn't directly affect me - I care about the learning and don't give a stuff about XP! - but I dislike it because I feel it could discourage good habits in people who need the carrot to keep revising and reviewing.
I was the same in the beginning, I didn't even know what XP were, I was just thrilled to be learning a language. But then, I realized I was wracking up points and lingots for all of the practicing I was doing and Duo was tracking how many days in a row I'd earned points and I was hooked! I kept up my practices and watched my totals grow. Once I'd gotten to level 25, XP didn't matter any more, but I'm still proud of my streak. As I've reported on other posts, the only thing that I'd like Duo to do now is fix the strengthening lessons so that weak words/phrases are tested more.
Zero at the moment since the clock reset for the week. ^^; But, I had 30 for the day before then. (I haven't done anything in the Incubator for 6 or so months. So, the pointage doesn't look all that impressive.)
EDIT: Oi! Thank you so much for asking that question!! Because that was yesterday and I didn't even realize I hadn't earned any today at all!
I was using the XP points as a way of knowing how much practice I'd had daily & thus each day, I set a goal that I would meet; it was my way of knowing/feeling I'd had enough practice for the day. So yea, I was keeping an eye to my points. Now I sit twice as long to gain half the points.
Me too. I use the xp to track my daily goal. Currently I want to review at least 2 lessons, twice, in 2 languages. That would equal 80 xp. It's easy to look at the xp for the day and know when I'm done. Now with the new change, I'd have to keep extensive notes on the side.
I do. When I am close to a new level I will sitdown and hammer through enough exercises to finish it off. I used to pay MMOs and I treat DL like an MMO...if I can get a level or more lingots...I do.
I don't mind it. 10 XP for new lessons = encouragement to do new lessons and 3 XP for reviewing older lessons. Duolingo is not stopping you from reviewing old lessons, you just get less XP, what's the big deal?
Because once you finish the course you might be level 14. But most people haven't memorized all of the material by then. Because burnout happens, some of us want to compete on the Leaderboard to keep us going on our language journeys. But, to do so we now have to spend 5x the time and effort just to compete unless we were gifted with a good enough memory capacity not to need so much review in the first place. Not everyone has that kind of time or energy. Also, I have brain damage and memory issues. So, I don't stand a chance if I want to compete in something like the monthly Mod vs Mod competitions on my Spanish course anymore. I wouldn't be able to support my team for a win. :'(
Agreed Usagi. I don't have much time to work on Duolingo, I can't even keep my streak going for more than 3 days so leveling up is my where I place my goals. I won't go too much into this since a lot of other people have written about this. But like many others I am not a huge fan of this change, it's throwing a lot of people off, basically with Duo for schools in mind. Basically a lot of users are getting thrown under the bus for it and while I understand nothing will be perfect on a website, this still could have be though through a little longer. Hopefully things find a way to smooth out.
Timed practice still gives up to 20xp. I don't know if you use that mode, but if you do, getting 100xp (or however much the MvM requires this go around) shouldn't be too hard.
That's true. In Luis' thread I say a brief bit about timed practice. More in depth however: Timed Practice was my sole means of using Duolingo because of the heart system. But, I wasn't using it for the harder stuff because I hadn't learned it well enough. But, I was so put off by the hearts that I was avoiding. (I tend to lose energy when faced with negative reinforcement, and start avoiding things in order to steer clear of the awful physical sensation.) With the hearts gone, I was venturing into those areas again. It felt very liberating. Now I'm bad to avoiding. :(
Actually, I think reduced XP may have been better than variable XP. The amount of XPs based on word strength may seem unfair at times because the word strength algorithm is still not very evolved. For example, a recently completed skill (if still not clear) may need 30 plus questions for completion on a subsequent attempt but will give 3 XP while a skill completed a long time back (though well understood by the user) may result in 10 XPs despite requiring only 17 questions for completion.
XPs by themselves shouldn't be a concern. Timed practice and immersion can help quickly climb to higher levels.
I agree with this. If it was consistent (so many XP to review a skill that is in the gold, so many (a higher #) if it is out of gold, so many for the generic strengthen skills, etc.), I would like it much better than the way it is done now.
If you are actually after the big XPs, well, doing lessons won't get you there. Immersion is the way to go.
But in my opinion, since everyone's goal is to learn a language and hopefully to become fluent one day, the number of xp per lesson that they receive should not be a problem.