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https://www.duolingo.com/paulaha88

Spanish Pronoun Chart

Yesterday I posted what I learned about indirect objects.

Here is a chart with all the Spanish pronouns in one place. Find it on this web page. You see Spanish Pronoun Chart on the lower half of the page, Resources for Learning Spanish. Note, the regular and irregular verb charts that are on the same menu.

3 years ago

14 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/remoonline
remoonline
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They're very simple sentences, but things happen!

No wonder. You have a cannibal in their midst! :)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/paulaha88

Hi JR. (Do you mind that I call you that?)

I like to think that I have a very good understanding of formal English grammar, and at least some understanding of Spanish formal grammar. I had never heard of clitic pronouns, so I looked it up. I think you're talking about the following. Is that correct?

  • Direct object pronouns: me, te, lo, la, los, las, etc.
  • Indirect object pronouns: me, te, le, les, etc.
  • Reflexive: me, te, se, nos, (os).

Did I miss any?

And the page I found says that the category is clitic pronouns, and if they are attached to another word, they are called enclitic (dime, mandarte, etc.). Is that right?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/J.R.Nogal
J.R.Nogal
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It is right.

Clitic pronouns are used jointly with a verb. Citics can be proclitic, if it is placed before a conjugated verb.

Example:

Lo puede dominar todo.

It can be enclitic if it is placed after a verb in infinitive, making a only unit.

Puede dominarlo todo.

Here dominarlo is dominar+lo.

Another example:

Ella es tu maestra. La debes respetar (proclitic)

Ella es tu maestra. Debes respetarla (enclitic).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/paulaha88

Thank you, JR. Now I understand the concept. That part is not too hard. A clitic is a kind of pronoun. That clitic can be before the verb (proclitic), or enclitic (attached to the verb). Does this mean that the other pronouns are not clitics because they are never enclitic? *Cerca de mí. El coche es mío.

It seems to me that there are a few topics within the subject.

  • Placement. Where do you put them in a sentence? These rules seem pretty clear. I should say, I see these rules whenever I read about any verb tense or mood. Just yesterday, I looked up the rules for imperative. It included the rule that the clitic precedes negative commands and it is attached to positive commands. No me lo digas. Dímelo. I know where to find these rules, and they are easy to understand. I simply have not studied them, and I should. Most of the people on DuoLingo have not studied them.

  • Basic usage: which pronoun? A student must learn which pronouns to use for direct objects, which to use for indirect objects, and which to use for reflexive. And the student must learn which kind of pronoun is necessary in the sentence. This is hard, but not impossible, for basic sentences.

A. No debes comerlo.
B. Ella se siente aquí.
C. Ella le prestó el coche a su hija. (Indirect object pronouns are harder.)

  • Sentences that are not simple. This is where I get into trouble. This is where I get very, very frustrated. To me, it feels like Spanish throws direct object pronouns and indirect object pronouns into a sentence como le da la gana. (¿Te parece así, the en inglés?) I know that's not true, but I feel that way sometimes. I look at a sentence, I analyze it, and still I cannot understand why a certain le or lo is there.

A. Él que domina la mente puede dominar lo todo.
B. Él que cree en si mismo puede hacerlo todo.

No puedo encontrar otros, pero cada vez que escribo, me hacen falta algunos. Cada vez que leo, me sobran más, sin porqué (por lo menos, me parece así).

JR, I should be reasonable. I should recognize that there is no SINGLE answer to this problem. I have learned the simple rules, so I can build simple sentences. But there is no ONE rule for complicated sentences. Instead, there are a thousand rules, and I must learn them, or at least understand them. Sometimes I just get very frustrated.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/J.R.Nogal
J.R.Nogal
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'El que cree en si mismo puede hacerlo todo'

This sentence has two parts

'El que cree en so mismo' (The one who believes in himself) is a nominal structure ( I call it Una construccion nominal). Is just another way to call somebody who I will call Jack.

Jack is a guy who believes in himself and who can do everything

Jack can do everything.

Jack puede hacer todo

Or, if we use the pronoun Lo

Lo puede hacer todo

Jack lo puede hacer todo

Jack puede hacerlo todo

El puede hacerlo todo.

Clitics are a legacy from Latin and his function would be to help to form the accusative and dative cases., I think.

Clitics exists in Italian and it are used like in Spanish.

Chi crede in se stesso puo farlo tutto

Chi crede in se stesso lo puo fare tutto.

Here 'lo' is the same pronoun with the same function

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PaulaLuchaJefa

Hi JR. Thank you for your patience. I understand the first part, the nominal structure. I'm confused about the second part.

"Lo" can be used two ways:
A. a neuter subject: Lo barato sale caro.
B. a masculine direct object: No me atrevo decirlo.

You have a pair of sentences:
Lo puede hacer todo.
Jack lo puede hacer todo.

Since you use "Jack" in the second sentence, I assume Jack is the subject. So "Lo" is not the subject. So "Lo" must be the direct object.

But isn't "todo" the direct object?
What can Jack do? He can do todo.
So todo is the object of the verb. If todo is the direct object, why do we still need the "Lo"? Why do we need the direct object twice?

As we analyze this sentence, I am starting to suspect that the answer to THIS question will help me understand the answer to MANY of my questions. This question "smells like" the kind of construction that always confuses me.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/J.R.Nogal
J.R.Nogal
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You can analyze this sentence

Puedo usar este traje en el trabajo (This suit can be used by me in the job)

I can express this in other way:

Este traje LO puedo usar en el trabajo.

'Este Traje' is not the subject. The subject is Me, 'Yo'. I can do something with the suit. What? I can use it in the job.

'Este traje' is used in an acusative form and we use the pronoun 'lo' to mark it.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/J.R.Nogal
J.R.Nogal
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If we use 'lo' as a enclitic, then the sentence will be

Este traje puedo usarlo en el trabajo

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/paulaha88

Oops. I posted that from the wrong account. I am still me.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/paulaha88

"Este traje LO puedo usar en el trabajo." Wow. That blows my mind. I will have to "chew on that" for awhile, before I can really comprehend it.

But as I think about it,
Este traje puedo usar sounds totally wrong.
LO puedo usar sounds totally right. Okay, tell me if I am right about this: If I want to put the direct object at the front of the sentence, I can only do that as a clitic pronoun. I can not use the actual noun as the direct object at the front of the sentence. But I CAN restate the noun. So I can use the clitic pronoun PLUS the actual noun. And the actual noun works almost like appositives in English (Jane, the secretary, never makes coffee).

Please correct mis malentendidos. Thank you. This is tremendously helpful.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/J.R.Nogal
J.R.Nogal
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Yes. You can put it at the front of the sentence, just before a conjugated verb if the pronoun is clitic. The pronoun can be redundant (and it is!) but it is idiosyncraticy of the spanish.

You can analyze this sentence:

¿Puedo comer ese pancake?

You can say it in several ways

¿Me puedo comer ese pancake?

Ese pancake ¿lo puedo comer?

Ese pancake ¿puedo comerlo?

Ese pancake ¿me lo puedo comer?

Ese pancake ¿puedo comermelo? (comer+me+lo)

(You can combine a verb+an ID pronoun+ an OD pronoun).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/paulaha88

I'll work on your pancake lesson Thursday. Thank you! Are you a teacher? A professor? A writer?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/paulaha88

I haven't forgotten.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tink629986
Tink629986
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For all its worth - the redshift link is dead ...

1 year ago