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https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulenrique

The original Portuguese?

Hello everybody.

I was following up a documentary about the Portuguese language and its differences in Brazil and Brazil vs. Portugal. I was really impressed to find out a fact:

Which is closest to the original Portuguese: pt-br or pt-pt?

For a long time I've posted here how pt-br has changed over time (and that really happens) and the way people in Portugal follow grammar rules. Pt-br has gone too far from the original Portuguese.

However, there has been a long investigation about it and they found out that PT-BR is closer to the original Portuguese spoken long ago. The reason? They examined old documents, etc. and saw that in mid-1800s pt-pt had a great external influence and went through a big reform. The result? A considerable distance from the original Portuguese, while pt-br remained closer to the original.

It was surprising to me!

April 1, 2015

41 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ricardomfe

What is the name of the documentary? I am also surprised as a Portuguese.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dkenneth

I'd love to know too!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulenrique

Actually, it was on the news. I'm tring to find which one it was since I watch many news on TV. I tried some sites but couldn't find it up to now (also, I don't remember the title). I suppose ti was here: http://noticias.r7.com/record-news.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RilkerBH

Awesome. Great report.

But I like language changes too. ^^


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulenrique

Perfect! You've got a point there!! =)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/clarissema7

Hahahahaha eu vi no mesmo dia no jornal! Engraçado alguém falando aqui!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vidavinunes

Oh, my goodness, I'm really surprised. I like both. However I think that the Portuguese from Brazil is easier to listen, 'cause it is slower, while the PT-PT is really fast, and even Brazilians can't understand what they say, nevertheless the PT-BR can be understood by Portugueses. One month ago I discovered that the PT-PT from the countryside of Portugal is like the PT-BR, 'cause I was talking with a man who I just had met, and I had thought that he was Brazilian, then he told that he was Portuguese, from the countryside. (Sorry, my English isn't good)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/nana00033

your english is off the hook for a person who doent know it


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaT3

We, the Portugueses we like to follow grammatical rules while the Brazilians seem to always speak informally and make mistakes like a Portuguese illiterate would like not do as the verb conjugation for example. I remember doing a online correction and brazilian guy corrected: "Suas origens veio do latim" beside "As suas origens VIERAM do Latim". The article it's option in Pt-Br but in Pt-Pt it's always used and the capital letter in areas of knowledge also, but the problem here it's a person who studied confuse the plural with the singular what it's real commum that kind of mistakes. Ofc not all brazilians do it,some write and speak very well, but the illiteracy it's a big problem. Also because the Brazilians didn't have any contact with anothers accents of Portuguese if in Tv someone speak in Portuguese and isn't Brazilian they put subtitles in Pt-br, they also have problems in undestand eachothers from different zones, the same didn't happen with the Portugueses the firsts soap opera was brazilians and still exist some soap opera brazilians as few Tv Channels Brazilias. That just happen with the Brazilians, how the ex-colonies had the independence in 1975 they are familiar with the language and also learn the Pt-Pt in schools, Macao back to China in 1999 and 7% of population speak Portuguese 3% speak native and they also learn Pt-Pt they have Portuguese school, I think maybe 3 or 5 schools Portuguese and also all things wrote in Portuguese and Cantonese and also somes in English. When a brazilian person arrive in Portugal in first times have a lot of problems to accustomed with the language, also the Brazilian people had influence in other cultures and that influence the language putting loanwords. For who didn't know in Brazil exist more than 100 languages :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulenrique

Agreed. The spoken pt-br lack many of the rules Portuguese has...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaT3

Isn't the question of who is the variant more spoken or important it's the problem of didn't follow rules, we didn't need be grammar nazis we just need speak without mistakes, we don't go be a poet but some kids of mistakes kids in primary school didn't made. A English person didn't speak as a American etc that doens't mean people will speak bad the own language, it's ridicule. Ok the teenagers wrote bad but at least in Portugal it's mandatory over the high school since 2010 before was just the 9th grade, doens't matter if it's in a professional course or normal one but at least they over the high school. So they speak bad/wrong because they want and not because doens't know write it's how they learn. Example the Portuguese write a lot of "tou" beside of "estou" the Brazilians write "tô" what for me make me confusion, why they write "tô" just because it's how they read?? We didn't go write exactly same way of the way we speak.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RilkerBH

Exactly. Nobody pronounces the 'u' whenever saying the short of 'estou'... even though the 'o' keeps the same intonation. That's why we put the accent on it (ô).

This also happen in the verb 'estar' and other words.

We don't usually pronouce the 'r' at the ending. So, 'estar' becomes 'está' or 'tá' in spoken pt-br. At least in my city. ^^


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaT3

Nobody in Brazil :p in Portugal stay like: "exe toou"...But está - tá can be accept it's the same of Estou - tou.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RilkerBH

In Brazil, of course.

I've seen some brazilians typing 'tou'. But it seems very weird to me. ^^


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lulu_Sorvetii

We say ''tô'', and not ''tou''

ok é a mesma coisa ._.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/xaghtaersis

Interesting. I do wonder what Angolian Portuguese is like. Is it pretty much like European Portuguese?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaT3

The ex-colonies of Portugal learn the European version in schools :) but some countries make mix with creoule, they just have the independence in 1975 so they speak as a Portuguese person :) Just exist two regulators of the Portuguese language: Instituto Internacional da Língua Portuguesa; CPLP; Academia Brasileira de Letras (Brazil); Academia das Ciências de Lisboa, Classe de Letras (Portugal). So just the Brazilians speak different way.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaT3

If the person have studies the accent yes it is and the grammar its the European


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HeloizaS

I believe Pt-Br and Pt-Pt is like the English-Uk and English-Us ... They both understand , but there are differences. Normal things because they are different countries, different cultures...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RilkerBH

I think that the distance between pt-br and pt-pt is a little biger than the distance between the two standard english ones.

:)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaT3

I also think the same, I think exist more difference between the Portuguese than the English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danmoller

I tend to agree....

But being a Brazilian makes me spot exactly what the differences between both Portugueses are, while I could hear both versions of English without really knowing which is which (except for accent, of course).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnDough3

Less to do with distance and more to do with simplicity, English has less going on grammatically etc. Basically there is a lot less that could change, or even become preferred, voce & tu as a basic example. We only have one You.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BarlimanOfBree

A similar phenomenon is seen in other "colonial" languages, such as French in Quebec: the "mother" tongue evolves, while the overseas language retains old features. It's a fascinating topic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/charles44667

I know that this is an old thread, but it is an interesting phenomenon. I asked a French professor where I could hear the purest Fr and without hesitation he said the French spoken by older and educated Africans from the old colonial countries like Cameroon have a particularly pure and beautiful old dialect whereas contemporary Fr-Fr has been sullied by external influences and acceptance of slang as mainstream. All problems that have affected most languages I guess. Contemporary Cameroonian Fr is also such a victim.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulenrique

Languages evolve, so it is hard to talk about "pure" languages since they are alive and handled by human beings =)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Far_1

Definetly surprised, nice post paul.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kyrelu

I'd be wary of terms like "original portuguese".

These types of discussions often bear connotations of superiority. This tends to lead to ignorant arguments that, not only create bigger gaps between the Brazilian and Portuguese communities, but carry with them a lack of understanding of how language works.

Let alone the fact that there is no such thing as "original portuguese". Portuguese slowly set itself apart from Galician in ways that were not geographically or socially consistent. Languages aren't still, they're malleable and constantly evolving.

However, it's possible that, in a lot of ways, Brazilian portuguese managed to retain many things European Portuguese did not. But that goes both ways.

Honestly, Galician is the closest to early stages of the portuguese language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Paulenrique

What is original?

According to the dictionary, original means:

1- Being the source from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is made.

2- A first form or model from which others are made or developed.

3- The source from which something arises; an originator.

4- of or relating to an origin or beginning.

So, I didn't mean pt-br is better or superior to pt-pt or didn't want to start a discussion about which one is more correct. I just wanted to share something that for me, as a native, was surprising!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alphaf

[01/04/15] Ual, Eu também estou surpreso!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danaibalt

This sounds a lot like what happened to english actually. The original accent for english is the american one. What is today considered a 'british accent' only developed in the victorian era


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danmoller

Not sure.... do you have sources???

I have recently noticed British vowels sound more like those of other languages (Say Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and German).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Scutigera

Not sure.... do you have sources???

Here you go:

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20180207-how-americans-preserved-british-english

It makes for a great story: when settlers moved from England to the Americas from the 17th Century, their speech patterns stuck in place. That was particularly true in more isolated parts of the US, such as on islands and in mountains. As a result, the theory goes, some Americans speak English with an accent more akin to Shakespeare’s than to modern-day Brits.

That’s not entirely right. The real picture is more complicated.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RilkerBH

Oh, really?

Cool


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danmoller

Hahaha!!!

I must paste this link to whoever says Brazil doesn't speak true Portuguese XD


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SophiaT3

MAS o pt-Br teve montes de influências: línguas nativas, mais línguas dos escravos, mais esteangeirismos, mais influência dos paises vizinhos etc, coisa que não aconteceu no pt-pt. Abres o " o Auto da Barca do Inferno" e é praticamente Pt-pt falado hoje em dia


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Engin-1975

Why is Portuguese language illustrated by Brazilian flag but not Portuguese flag? If this is because Brazil is the largest Portuguese-speaking country, shouldn’t we illustrate Spanish language by Mexican flag instead of Spanish flag?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FlawyerLawyer

It shows the Brazilian flag because the Portuguese dialect taught here is the Brazilian one. It has nothing to do with which has the most population.

I can't speak for the Spanish course, though. Duolingo uses a mixture of Spanish from everywhere. Sometimes they use words that are only used in Spain, other times words that are used in Venezuela, Mexico and so on, which is complicated.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lulu_Sorvetii

I like the brazilian portuguese (talvez pq sou brasileira né kkkk )


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FlawyerLawyer

Kkkkkkkkkkkk meio óbvio mas acho o português dos outros países bem interessante também.

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