The original Portuguese?
I was following up a documentary about the Portuguese language and its differences in Brazil and Brazil vs. Portugal. I was really impressed to find out a fact:
Which is closest to the original Portuguese: pt-br or pt-pt?
For a long time I've posted here how pt-br has changed over time (and that really happens) and the way people in Portugal follow grammar rules. Pt-br has gone too far from the original Portuguese.
However, there has been a long investigation about it and they found out that PT-BR is closer to the original Portuguese spoken long ago. The reason? They examined old documents, etc. and saw that in mid-1800s pt-pt had a great external influence and went through a big reform. The result? A considerable distance from the original Portuguese, while pt-br remained closer to the original.
It was surprising to me!
I'd be wary of terms like "original portuguese".
These types of discussions often bear connotations of superiority. This tends to lead to ignorant arguments that, not only create bigger gaps between the Brazilian and Portuguese communities, but carry with them a lack of understanding of how language works.
Let alone the fact that there is no such thing as "original portuguese". Portuguese slowly set itself apart from Galician in ways that were not geographically or socially consistent. Languages aren't still, they're malleable and constantly evolving.
However, it's possible that, in a lot of ways, Brazilian portuguese managed to retain many things European Portuguese did not. But that goes both ways.
Honestly, Galician is the closest to early stages of the portuguese language.
What is original?
According to the dictionary, original means:
1- Being the source from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is made.
2- A first form or model from which others are made or developed.
3- The source from which something arises; an originator.
4- of or relating to an origin or beginning.
So, I didn't mean pt-br is better or superior to pt-pt or didn't want to start a discussion about which one is more correct. I just wanted to share something that for me, as a native, was surprising!
http://g1.globo.com/jornal-hoje/videos/t/edicoes/v/entenda-as-diferencas-do-portugues-falado-em-portugal-e-no-brasil/4052108/ The European version evolved with the pass of years and the Pt-Br no.
Well, certainly Brazilian version evolved too.
You'd be surprised to see how many African and Indian (Brazilian native indians) words and expressions we have.
And of course, that is not the only thing. It's impossible to hold back a language from growing and dividing, especially in such a big country like Brazil.
Portuguese emerge from Galician-Portuguese after the independence and building the kingdom of Portugal, Portugal begins the achievements and thus makes known the Portuguese language. The Pt-Br seems to have stopped in time while the Pt-Pt evolved I don't think it's a bad thing a language to evolve we don't speak of archaic way so it's normal that changed.
you're right!! Actually, ev'ry single language changes daily since it's done by living beings!
As portuguese person that in my opinion it's bad, I think we should to evolve. How I'm not brazilian that isn't my problem, it's a problem of Brazilians and they are the owns who can change it if they want, but how exist so many iliterate people in Brazil maybe the "archaic" way they speak it's more easy to people who doens't have acess to education.
We can't take things too general. For example, your insight shows how you don't search for things... but I can't say all Portuguese people are ignorant, right?
Oh, my goodness, I'm really surprised. I like both. However I think that the Portuguese from Brazil is easier to listen, 'cause it is slower, while the PT-PT is really fast, and even Brazilians can't understand what they say, nevertheless the PT-BR can be understood by Portugueses. One month ago I discovered that the PT-PT from the countryside of Portugal is like the PT-BR, 'cause I was talking with a man who I just had met, and I had thought that he was Brazilian, then he told that he was Portuguese, from the countryside. (Sorry, my English isn't good)
We didn't speak fast, the Brazilians just speak melodically and slowly, we speak normal. You don't want see a potuguese speaking fast you probably don't will understand nothing^^. Saying a portuguese speak fast it's the same saying a english man speak more fast than a american one. How Brazilians speak melodically can give the elusion of they speak more slowly and we fast but we speak normaly, ofc all people can speak fast in own language but that isn't the normal population ^^
É verdade então. Suponho que seja apenas uma questão de costume, acho que se eu me acostuma-se com o português de Portugal eu diria que ele tem uma velocidade normal. Porém por hora, sempre quando ouço um português falar, não entendo 100% o que ele fala. Como é ouvir o sotaque do brasileiro na ótica portuguesa?
"...acho que se me acostumar..." Normal pois estamos habituados desde sempre tivemos novelas e há muitos brasileiros em Portugal. Por vezes os portugueses tem de usar gírias brasileiras e falar muito devagar se não os brasileiros não entendem. Há estrangeiros que vivem em Portugal ou aprendem o Pt-Pt que entendem melhor que os brasileiros, é ridículo e estranho, mas é verdade. Falo com muitos estrangeiros que vivem em Portugal e nunca me pediram para falar mais devagar e vivem à cerca de 5 anos em Portugal se tanto. Um brasileiro que sempre falou Português nos primeiros tempos tem problemas em entender a variante e isso irrita profundamente os portugueses.
Escrevi errado, era: "...acho que seu eu me acostumasse...". Fatos deveras interessantes estes que citou. Porém aqui dificilmente vejo novela portuguesa na TV brasileira, atualmente só está passando uma em uma emissora não muito famosa. O Brasil deveria exibir mais da mídia Portuguesa, com isso nós poderíamos nos acostumar com o português europeu e assim ter menos barreiras linguísticas entre as nações. Por favor me sane outras dúvidas a respeito do PT-PT: 1: O gerúndio em Portugal é completamente nulo? Nunca é usado? Pois aqui no Brasil de vez em quando usa-se expressões sem gerúndio como: "Estou a estudar", pelo menos eu uso. 2: E o "você", é usado em Portugal? Ou nunca é falado? Aqui em Brasília o "tu" é usado quase tanto quando o "você".
Sim para nos Factos = facts e Fatos = cloth to events ^^ Não vejo novelas portuguesas não gosto muito ^^ ... 1º O Gerúndio é mais usado como complemento, mas podes procurar melhor sobre isso, no entanto posso dar-te dois exemplos: Tendo o jogo terminado fomos todos para casa. / Vou indo para casa agora que a chuva parou. 2º Sim já me disseram que é usado, mas por norma não fazem bem a conjugação...Tanto o "tu" com o "você" são usados, mas é como no Espanhol, o "tu" é para pessoas da mesma idade, amigos, pessoas com quem temos intimidades etc, o "você" é formal e é usado para pessoas mais velhas, desconhecidos, figuras da autoridade etc. Por norma fica implícito como fazemos a conjugação verbal não precisamos de repetir sempre ora repara: Formal: Quer vir ao cinema comigo? / Informal: Queres vir ao cinema comigo? Formal: Gosto muito da sua camisola / Informal: Gosto muito da tua camisola. Formal: Gostaria de vir de férias comigo? Informal: Gostarias de ir vir de férias comigo? Podes usar este site para os verbos: http://www.conjuga-me.net/ No norte de Portugal o "Vós" é também usado como forma de singular, é bastante comum em algumas zonas até mesmo pelos mais novos e não como muitos pensam que é só por campónios ou como lêem no Wikipédia que é extinto. Também muito comum em peças de teatro :) Ou linguagem do tempo dos Reis :)
We, the Portugueses we like to follow grammatical rules while the Brazilians seem to always speak informally and make mistakes like a Portuguese illiterate would like not do as the verb conjugation for example. I remember doing a online correction and brazilian guy corrected: "Suas origens veio do latim" beside "As suas origens VIERAM do Latim". The article it's option in Pt-Br but in Pt-Pt it's always used and the capital letter in areas of knowledge also, but the problem here it's a person who studied confuse the plural with the singular what it's real commum that kind of mistakes. Ofc not all brazilians do it,some write and speak very well, but the illiteracy it's a big problem. Also because the Brazilians didn't have any contact with anothers accents of Portuguese if in Tv someone speak in Portuguese and isn't Brazilian they put subtitles in Pt-br, they also have problems in undestand eachothers from different zones, the same didn't happen with the Portugueses the firsts soap opera was brazilians and still exist some soap opera brazilians as few Tv Channels Brazilias. That just happen with the Brazilians, how the ex-colonies had the independence in 1975 they are familiar with the language and also learn the Pt-Pt in schools, Macao back to China in 1999 and 7% of population speak Portuguese 3% speak native and they also learn Pt-Pt they have Portuguese school, I think maybe 3 or 5 schools Portuguese and also all things wrote in Portuguese and Cantonese and also somes in English. When a brazilian person arrive in Portugal in first times have a lot of problems to accustomed with the language, also the Brazilian people had influence in other cultures and that influence the language putting loanwords. For who didn't know in Brazil exist more than 100 languages :)
Isn't the question of who is the variant more spoken or important it's the problem of didn't follow rules, we didn't need be grammar nazis we just need speak without mistakes, we don't go be a poet but some kids of mistakes kids in primary school didn't made. A English person didn't speak as a American etc that doens't mean people will speak bad the own language, it's ridicule. Ok the teenagers wrote bad but at least in Portugal it's mandatory over the high school since 2010 before was just the 9th grade, doens't matter if it's in a professional course or normal one but at least they over the high school. So they speak bad/wrong because they want and not because doens't know write it's how they learn. Example the Portuguese write a lot of "tou" beside of "estou" the Brazilians write "tô" what for me make me confusion, why they write "tô" just because it's how they read?? We didn't go write exactly same way of the way we speak.
Exactly. Nobody pronounces the 'u' whenever saying the short of 'estou'... even though the 'o' keeps the same intonation. That's why we put the accent on it (ô).
This also happen in the verb 'estar' and other words.
We don't usually pronouce the 'r' at the ending. So, 'estar' becomes 'está' or 'tá' in spoken pt-br. At least in my city. ^^
Nobody in Brazil :p in Portugal stay like: "exe toou"...But está - tá can be accept it's the same of Estou - tou.
In Brazil, of course.
I've seen some brazilians typing 'tou'. But it seems very weird to me. ^^
This sounds a lot like what happened to english actually. The original accent for english is the american one. What is today considered a 'british accent' only developed in the victorian era
Not sure.... do you have sources???
I have recently noticed British vowels sound more like those of other languages (Say Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and German).
Not sure.... do you have sources???
Here you go:
It makes for a great story: when settlers moved from England to the Americas from the 17th Century, their speech patterns stuck in place. That was particularly true in more isolated parts of the US, such as on islands and in mountains. As a result, the theory goes, some Americans speak English with an accent more akin to Shakespeare’s than to modern-day Brits.
That’s not entirely right. The real picture is more complicated.
I believe Pt-Br and Pt-Pt is like the English-Uk and English-Us ... They both understand , but there are differences. Normal things because they are different countries, different cultures...
I think that the distance between pt-br and pt-pt is a little biger than the distance between the two standard english ones.
I also think the same, I think exist more difference between the Portuguese than the English.
I tend to agree....
But being a Brazilian makes me spot exactly what the differences between both Portugueses are, while I could hear both versions of English without really knowing which is which (except for accent, of course).
Less to do with distance and more to do with simplicity, English has less going on grammatically etc. Basically there is a lot less that could change, or even become preferred, voce & tu as a basic example. We only have one You.
In true "vós" it's used in North of Portugal and as singular form, no matter if it's young or old people in Porto, Vila Nova de Gaia, ... they use Vós but as singular and not plural as many people think. Só shoul be: Tu, Você, Vós ---Vocês...But you can say: Querem levar convosco o jornal? / Vocês querem levar o jornal?
I didn't know that about the European Portuguese, in Brazil is like I said. Nice to know.
'Vós' is used in Brazil either as plural or singular.
Actually, the singular form is the more common one.
But we only use it in churches stuff
Haha! My aunt always said "youse" when referring to more than one "you." And southern US uses "you-all" as a plural for "you"
Portuguese become from Galician-Portuguese or Old Portuguese. When we ask which Portuguese its near of the original one doest make sense saying Galician, we are talking about Portuguese and Galician its considerate other language and not a variation of Portuguese
Interesting. I do wonder what Angolian Portuguese is like. Is it pretty much like European Portuguese?
The ex-colonies of Portugal learn the European version in schools :) but some countries make mix with creoule, they just have the independence in 1975 so they speak as a Portuguese person :) Just exist two regulators of the Portuguese language: Instituto Internacional da Língua Portuguesa; CPLP; Academia Brasileira de Letras (Brazil); Academia das Ciências de Lisboa, Classe de Letras (Portugal). So just the Brazilians speak different way.
If the person have studies the accent yes it is and the grammar its the European
I must paste this link to whoever says Brazil doesn't speak true Portuguese XD
MAS o pt-Br teve montes de influências: línguas nativas, mais línguas dos escravos, mais esteangeirismos, mais influência dos paises vizinhos etc, coisa que não aconteceu no pt-pt. Abres o " o Auto da Barca do Inferno" e é praticamente Pt-pt falado hoje em dia