"Sultan Ahmet camisi nerede?"

Translation:Where is the Blue Mosque?

April 2, 2015

48 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Fariba.R

why this " Sultan Ahmet's mosque " is not correct?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/j.wilder

The key is that in Turkish when indicating possession, both the possessor and the possessed get case endings (i.e., "benim kedim, senin kedin, onun kedisi...). Since "Sultan Ahmet" has no case ending, we know right off the bat that this is not a phrase that shows possession; If we wanted to say "Sultan Ahmet's mosque" it would be "Sultan Ahmet'in camisi" with the "-in" suffix attached to the possessor, as Alex points out above.

Since we know that the "-si" suffix here is not indicating possession due to the lack of a possessive suffix on the possessor (Sultan Ahmet), we know that this suffix must be functioning in its other use: to indicate a compound noun.

Another example of this grammatical construction pointed out by orde90 farther down in this thread is "üniversite öğrencisi" which translates to "university student" or "student of the university." Again, since there is no possessive suffix here on "üniversite," we know that even though we see the "-si" suffix, this phrase does not indicate possession.

For those familiar with it, this compound noun grammatical construction is similar to the idhaafa (إضافة) construction in Arabic, or the izaafe (إضافه) construction in Persian.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeemaK1063

I think the person asking meant why is Sultan Ahmet translated as Blue Mosque, why mot just Sultan Ahmet. They didnt mean to ask about possession.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andreas_Lindgren

Ah, yes! Thinking of it as an idafa construction makes it a lot clearer. Hadn't thought of that before. Thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/A1fie

Sultan Ahmet is the name of the mosque, not the owner. It's like saying Churchill Hall.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maryam344437

But camisi is in possesive condition


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexinNotTurkey

sahiplik/-in hali = genitive case, not possessive condition :) Notice that it is not "Sultan Ahmet'in camisi," which has the genitive case (this would be Sultan Ahmet's Mosque). The -si is indeed a possessive suffix, but this is also used to make noun compounds in English (which unlike Turkish, has no possessive markers whatsoever)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/R_Andersson

Thank you very much. Is that also why su ‘water’ turns into suyu in the word meyve suyu ’juice’? Is suyu the genitive of su?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ektoraskan

Suyu is the 3rd person possessive of "su" (his/her/its water). It's an irregular word. You'd expect it to be "susu" (like camisi) but it's "suyu". More on that here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/R_Andersson

@Ektoraskan Thank you very much for responding. Çok teşekkür ederim!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kareem_human

Si as a suffix can also mean "of". You would use it by describing something as something else. Example: chicken souo would be tavuğu çorbasi and not just çorba. Im sorry if im being confusing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Johendrik

It's a very strange translation , the mosque of sultan Ahmet is in the translation the blue mosque


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN

The Sultan Ahmet mosque is also nicknamed the Blue mosque. Both are accepted as correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Brinux

Ok, but even if I can guess it, it's not my knowledge of Istanbul what should be tested!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NusaHatun

@Birinux, yes, but at least if you go to Turkey, you'll understand what the "Blue mosque" means


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ghYgiYghhggi

That's right, but you may look at it as an extra information. Other languages courses have similar hints which could be considered as a part of the cultural background of the language being taught.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lexx_it

Why Google and Wikipedia say that it is spelled as Sultan Ahmet Camii?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ex_contributor

definitely not Ahmed, but Ahmet, this is how this name is spelled in Turkish.

Camii instead of Camisi is the older version, it is still in use, but nowadays "camisi" is used more commonly


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BABELTOWER12

I'd suggest Duolinguo should accept also "Sultan Ahmet's Mosque" or Mosque of "Sultan Ahmet" as an answer to this question, next to the "Blue Mosque". Otherwise, this answer is considered as wrong whereas it is word to word correct translation !


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ex_contributor

"Sultan Ahmet Mosque" is accepted. but "sultan ahmet's mosque" is wrong also grammatically, as the Turkish version is not "Sultan Ahmet'in camisi"; it doesn't belong to Sultan ahmet


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NusaHatun

ahh, How I miss the days where Selcen was still here


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lexx_it

Sorry, I have misspelled. Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarwaAtia1

Why " sultan Ahmet camisi " become " blue mosque " when it translated into English


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexinNotTurkey

Because the building is most commonly called "The Blue Mosque" in English and "Sultan Ahmet Camisi" in Turkish. We of course accept "Sultan Ahmet Mosque" as well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NusaHatun

in Arabic, we say مسجد السلطان أحمد, (The Sultan Ahmed mosque) In Turkish we say, "Sultan Ahmet Camisi" what I don't understand is how it becomes "Sultan Ahmed's mosque" in English... It's not Sultan Ahmet's private property!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lallamaflamenca

I understand it is Sultan Ahmed's mosque, but why is "cami" with the possessive and Ahmet not? I think if it rather like "Where's Sultan Ahmet's mosque's (...)?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/orde90

it's rather like Sultan Ahmet mosque. in turkish compound nouns are constructed this way

University student -> üniversite öğrencisi

student of the university or the university's student -> üniversitenin öğrencisi

since it's more like the first one we don't use -in ending with Sultan Ahmet name.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lallamaflamenca

Then I don't understand why the genitive/possessive is there :p


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LiliumAgri

Same ending used, slightly different construct. Think of it this way:

taksinin şöförü: the driver of the taxi

taksi şöförü: taxi driver

When the POSSESSOR ending -(n)in is there, it's showing that there is a very close relationship between a specific possessor and specific possessed thing.

When ONLY the "possessed" ending is there -(s)I(n), it's showing a more abstract relationship between the words. That is, they use the same ending to mark a compound word, but without the POSSESSOR ending that would make it more specific.

So similarly:

Sultan Ahmet'in camisi: The mosque belonging to Sultan Ahmet

but

Sultan Ahmet camisi: Sultan Ahmet mosque (compound word)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lallamaflamenca

Ok, got it now. Although, if I wanted to say "Where's the Blue Mosque's guard?", would it be "Sultan Ahmet camisi bekçi nerede?".

Sorry I keep asking OTHER things when you answer me somethingggg, but if I don't have something clear I break down.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LiliumAgri

Never a problem.

[Sultan Ahmet camisi]-nin bekçi-si nerede?

(obviously without the extra punctuation, just putting it there to clarify suffixes.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SamanthaRa532683

So the mosque is known as Sultan Ahmet's mosque but more commonly as the Blue Mosque?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexinNotTurkey

In Turkish, it is know as "Sultan Ahmet Camisi" and Turks even like to joke about people who call it "Mavi Cami" or "the Blue Mosque" :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Guy_Bailey

Neden "nerde" denir ama yazılamaz? Anlıyorum ki resmî Türkçe'de böyle yazılır, ama 'nerde' cevap olarak da kabul edilebilir bence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ektoraskan

Türkçede*

Türk Dil Kurumu "Nerde/Burda/Şurda/Orda"yı doğru kabul etmiyor.

meb.gov.tr'den:

13) İçeri, dışarı, ileri, şura, bura, ora, yukarı, aşağı gibi sözler ek aldıklarında sonlarında bulunan ünlüler düşmez: "içerde" değil içeride, "dışardan" değil dışarıdan, "ilerde" değil ileride, şurda değil şurada, "burda" değil burada, "orda" değil orada, "nerde" değil nerede.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kris118

I am really confused I thought blue was mavi?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/A1fie

Yes it means blue/mavi. It is a nickname given because of the blue tiles inside the mosque.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Complex77

Now this word totally destroys my only hope of making learning vocabulary easier.

couldn't it be "camı"? No, it has to be "cami". ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ex_contributor

first of all the word itself is "cami", so -i is not a suffix and doesn't need to follow the vovel harmony. and it is a foreign word (arabic) so in general it doesn't have to follow the rules


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Complex77

Ah, thank you. When reviewing the vocabulary, I noticed that many words themselves (no suffixes) actually do follow the vowel harmony, so I was a bit disappointed here. But if this is an Arabic word, it makes sense.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarwanArrif

I urge you to read these two articles about the "Noun Compounding" in Turkish if you are confused: http://ielanguages.com/turkish-noun-compounds.html http://www.turkishlanguage.co.uk/nouns.htm (search for "Turkish Compound Nouns" section)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cathnog

teşekkür ederim for the link.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/klh67

The answer isn't really correct for all those who don't know that the Sultan Ahmet Mosque is called the Blue Mosque by tourists.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LimaDona

I got this translation right but as a professional translator myself, I find "Blue Mosque" misleading. That is cultural information not an accurate translation of the phrase.

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