"Il cuoco ha il formaggio nel piatto."
Translation:The cook has cheese on the plate.
105 Comments
maybe I'm crazy, but I even slowed this down and it sounded like they said "una" instead of "nel". I played it 4 times before deciding that even though I didn't think it made sense, maybe I was going to learn something new about grammar. Instead, I learned I should take the sound file with a grain of salt...
I find it difficult to hear some of the words in Italian and Portuguese as the volume fluctuates, from normal to almost silent, mid sentence, even on slow repeat.
1915
Some of the lessons involve transcription, in which case there are no written words to look at.
The cook has "THE" cheese on the plate, should be 100% right since it says "IL formaggio"
- 1915
In general, that's not good reasoning to use. Never apply the rules of one language to another.
- 373
How then would you write this differently if you were intending to translate it to "the cheese"?
Whenever you have "nel" "al" "del" "dal" "nella" "della" etc. it's the definite article :)
- 134
The indefinite article stuff is completely killing me on answering a lot of these - "a" or "the" seems to be what i get wrong almost 100% of the time.
Fortunately, most times you can tap the Italian article, and view the English translation of "a" or "the" in case you forget which is the correct answer. (Easy breezy!)
The translation of "nel" is given as "in the", but in the translated sentence it appears as "on the".
Many Italian pronouns (such as 'per', 'a', etc) can correlate to multiple pronouns in English. It is my understanding in this case that they may consider food to be "in" a plate, whereas an English speaker would consider it to be "on" the plate. Although the literal translation might be "in," the appropriate meaning in English would be "on." On a related note: in Italy, plates on which saucy foods are served are often high-walled and might even be considered bowls - perhaps this is where the confusion comes from?
In Latin, which Italian comes from, there is only one word "in" which means in/on, or into/onto if used in a different grammatical case. (In case you were curious, in/on uses ablative, into/onto uses accusative.)
I would assume that "on" is a French or German adaptation of the Latin word "in", which would mean that Italian never acquired a different word for "On top of". I can sort of see this with Latin "ad" (to), which can also mean "near" or "towards", and with certain verbs "in front of/before", where I would expect the dative or accusative.
Latin is fun. Italian is fun too. I'd recommend learning Latin after Italian, you'd learn a lot about grammar. More than any English class has taught me.
My crockery knowledge is not perfect but I would say 'dish' would be a more accurate description, in this case, as this incudes the rimmed bowl as well as the flatter unrimmed 'plate'. Personally, if I see the food is more than halfway below the level of the rim of the 'dish' then I would say that's in rather than on.
Aside from not being a literal word for word translation, is there some reason "The cook has a plate of cheese" is considered incorrect?
I think "a plate of cheese" would be "un piatto di formaggio". Nel is a contraction of "in il".
That is not what is written. The quote specifies The Cheese, as though there were a known block of specific cheese. Il cuoco ha un piatto di formaggio is a different sentence, and connotes the Cheese course as well.
- 1915
In this case, it's framed as "in" the plate in Italian because it's considered a vessel that contains things.
- 1915
Different focus. "The cook has cheese on the plate" focuses on the cheese, and it happens to be on a plate. "The cook has a plate with cheese on it" focuses on the plate, and it happens to have cheese on it. Also the difference between "a plate" and "the plate".
Italians so often flow one word into another which can sometimes be hard on the ear to figure out. However I like the authentic and accurate sound of the clip - it is the way Italians speak.
I have found that if you hold the mouse over any word it isolates and plays just that word - excellent, and it makes it easier to understand and assemble 'the parts'.
Why is cheese definite here? I don't quite grasp when to make something definite and when not to. In English, it's just "cheese", but it Italian, it's "the cheese."
It would appear that Italians like to use definite articles more than the English (the Germans do, too). I suspect it's to aid in alleviating any possible confusion on plural/singular nouns (that and it just flows well in Italian).
I agree with philster; through my Italian university courses we use articles a lot more in Italian than English.
What is "il cuoco" that it's the same that "a chef" it doesn't have a lot of sense.
I forgot my 2nd "t" in "piatto". Whenever something like that happens in any other game, etc., the spelling error passes. Why is it incorrect now?
I see your point. But I've done that before in other places, (I'm no spelling champ, especially on the keyboard), and it does pass.
I don't know why it is so difficult for everyone to understand her. She does speak clearly
Both are the same in Italian. I give a more complex description earlier in the discussion; scroll up if you want to see it.
Sound file is unclear. Listened to it five times and still got it wrong because I missed the "il" in front of formaggio which it's not clear to me yet whether it should be there or not anyway.
- 1915
"nel" is literally "in + il" where the Italian word "in" happens to roughly translate to the English word "in". But Italian in this context uses "in" where English uses "on".
Sorry, but 'the' was not included among choices, so i just used on and got dinged for it. Nutz!
Would "Il cuoco ha il formaggio sul piatto" be equally as acceptable?
How can I tell if it means 'cheese is on the plate' or 'cheese is in the dish' - as in 'the meal contains cheese'? Also, is it always the masculine form 'il cuoco', even if it is a woman, or la cuoca'?
- 1915
"to be in the dish" meaning "the meal contains the ingredient" is an English idiom. I would not assume that it's framed the same way in Italian.
When speaks faster she says "e" but while speaking slower she says "a"!
- 1915
Well, you can report it if you like, but the standard way of putting it is simply "on the plate".
- 1915
Italian uses definite articles differently than English does. Different language, different grammar rules. It's never a good strategy to translate word-for-word.
I am learning this language...can someone tell me the what would with using "sul" instead of "nel" especially in the context of the sentence above. With my small knowledge of the language so far, "sul" translates as "on the" while "nel" translates as "in the" shade some light please.
- 1915
Many times, words do not have perfect correspondences between languages. This is especially true for prepositions. Sure, "su" literally means "on" and "in" literally means "in", but they are often used differently. Why are we "in" a car but "on" a train? Why are we "in" bed? Why are we "on" a couch but "in" a chair?
In English, a plate is a surface so we put things "on" it. In Italian, a plate is a vessel so they put things "in" it.
"Nel" says neither "a" nor "the", only "on". So either "on the" or "on a" can be correct surely? The nearest exact English I can think of for "nel piatto" would be "plated", which avoids the issue but is a bit strained!
- 1915
"Nel" is literally "in"+"il", which is "in the". But in English we say "on" a plate. Either way, the "the" is explicitly there.
- 1273
The female speaker definitely says "nella piatta". I've complained about this misleading pronunciation for 4 years and Duo has done nothing about it. The male speakers don't present the same problem.
Is it me or the English translation is a bad one (i.e., not idiomatic) ? Wouldn't a native English speaker rather say something like "There is cheese in the cook's plate/dish" ?
- 1915
Yes, "su" is "on" and "in" is "in" ("nel" is one of the ways to say "in the").
But usage differs between languages. A plate is a sort of container, therefore they frame it as "in" the plate. But we say "on" the plate, so that's how we translate it.
- 1915
Because Italian uses articles differently than English does. Translation is never word-for-word substitution. The grammar is going to be different, too.
There ia no "the" among the options of words, so why do i get the question marked incorrectly since there was a missing word...
It shouldn't use "in the," unless the cook is extremely talented an managed to stuff the inside of a hollowed-out plate with cheese.
Italian, like Latin, seems to have one word for "in" and "on", being "in". As replied to the user notesurfer above: "In Latin, which Italian comes from, there is only one word "in" which means in/on, or into/onto if used in a different grammatical case. (In case you were curious, in/on uses ablative, into/onto uses accusative.)
I would assume that "on" is a French or German adaptation of the Latin word "in", which would mean that Italian never acquired a different word for "On top of". I can sort of see this with Latin "ad" (to), which can also mean "near" or "towards", and with certain verbs "in front of/before", where I would expect the dative or accusative.
Latin is fun. Italian is fun too. I'd recommend learning Latin after Italian, you'd learn a lot about grammar. More than any English class has taught me."
- 1915
Italian has words for both "on" and "in". But no two languages use prepositions the same way. Consider how in English we say we're "in" bed even though we're lying on top of it. In Italian, food is "in" a plate. It does not mean they use the same word for "on" and "in".
The literal translation of prepositions in different languages does not always match the proper way one uses them in all cases.
We think of food as "on the plate" while Italians think (when thinking in Italian) of it as being "in the plate". So while the literal translation of nel is indeed "in the", one would still translate the sentence as "on the plate" simply because that is the proper preposition in English.
Italians conceptualize the plate to "contain" food, hence they use nel. Though, for the Italian word for "tray" (vassoio) you would translate "on the" literally: sul. Also, if you see many traditional Italian plates, they are not as flat as the common American plate.
This issue with prepositions differing, is not unique to Italian versus English. Try Hebrew or Arabic compared to English.
᛫ "Meet you on Monday, in Washington, at the corner of Independence and 3ʳᵈ Street."
All of the italicized prepositions above, will be translated in this specific sentence as bè (hebrew 'ב'. Or as Fì in Arabic 'في'.), even though they all have corresponding prepositions that are used the same as in English in other cases.
P.S.
The literal Italian translation of "on the", is sul.
- 789
No, il cuoco (m) / la cuoca (f) means "the cook".
la cucina - the cooker, the stove
il forno - the oven
la piastra - the hob
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-italian/cook http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-italian/cooker http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-italian/oven http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-italian/hob
I hope this helps.
