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- "Ben pencere kenarında oturma…
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I have trouble understanding why "oturmayı" does not refer to "ben": I would have thought that the proper way of expressing this would have been : Ben pencere kenarında oturmamı [possessive+accusative] seviyorum. Is that wrong?
as far as I know, as long as the subject and the pronoun are the same, you dont need to repeat the personal suffix.. in this example, you already said "ben" and "yorum" in the verb so you don't need another -m in the gerund
my first guess was ben pencere kenarinda oturmak seviyorum, but sevmek fiil need accusative, so oturmak became oturmayi otherwise it would't make any sense.
another example; I want to sit beside the window = ben pencere kenarinda oturmak istiyorum.
I want YOU to sit beside the window = ben pencere kenarinda oturmaNi istiyorum.
Is there any reason a genitive construction isn't used on pencere here?
That would make the "pencere" a specific one. There is a window in our living room, and we've talked about it a few times. And now I want to say that I love sitting by the window, referring to that specific window, then I would say "pencerenin kenarında".
But let's say we went to a restaurant. And I want to say that I like sitting by the windows. I have never seen that window before, nor do I know the scenery, but I simply like sitting by windows; literally any window would do. So no need to specify it: "pencere kenarında". Pencere is so indefinite here that, I'm sure if this was German or Dutch, it would be spelt: "het Pencerekanarı" or something. :D The "side" part is important, not "which window".
Pencere kenarı is also used in trains and busses and planes, referring to the seats located next to the window.
Then perhaps the sentence above is best translated by "I like sitting by windows," which BTW is accepted here as well.
oh, like the seat by the window in the bus, thanks a lot :) simdi anladim :)
Can we say "ben pencere kenarında oturmak seviyorum"? Is there a difference in the meaning or is it simple wrong"?
That is incorrect. Sevmek obligatorily takes accusative: oturmak -> oturmayı.
Yeah, but the rules need to be explained better. It has not been made all that clear when the meaning of "sitting" is oturmak or oturma(yı). The information page before the "gerunds" skill gives the impression that both forms are pretty much interchangeable, whereas doing the exercises indicates that they are not.
Here are the conclusions this student has reached by trial and error, please correct him if he is wrong:
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The gerund "Oturmak" works when "sitting" takes the role of the subject in the nominative. (By the way, can't recall seeing case endings attached to gerunds ending in -mak/mek, değil mi?)
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The gerund "oturma," that can take case endings, is used when "siting" is the object of a verb (or perhaps more precisely in the accusative case). Is it safe to assume that would be the situation with other cases as well? One more thing: If "sitting" needed to be in the nominative case, are "oturmak" and "oturma" safely interchangeable?
Gerunds ending in -mek/-mak can't take the accusative at all (Oturmağı - inexistant. Use oturmayı). Dative would be very outdated, though you can hear it from people over 50 years of age and in some old texts (oturmağa - obsolete. Use oturmaya). Locative is possible: oturmakta. Oturmada is also used. They're used in different contexts. For example, oturmaktayım = I'm sitting. This is an alternative to oturuyorum. Oturmadayım isn't used in this context. But a person who has had an accident and can barely sit or stand can say: Oturmada biraz sıkıntı yaşıyorum. - I'm having some problems with sitting. Ablative is also possible: oturmaktan. For example: oturmaktan sıkıldım. - I'm sick of just sitting. Oturmadan can't be used in this context. Oturmadán - with the stress on the last syllable is rare. I can't think of a context where I would use it. But if you allow me to use a different verb: gezmedén, again the last syllable is stressed, it would be used like: "gezmeden geliyoruz." - We're returning from a sightseeing trip. But if you stress the first syllable: otúrmadan / gézmeden, it would mean: without sitting or without travelling. Or in some contexts: before sitting, before travelling. So pay attention to that.
I love love love all your in-depth explanations. Thank you for putting so much time into helping us.
Thank you for your response. I never expected to find a grammar book, in the tips and notes section. However, it serves very well as a incentive for further research and studing. Comments by you and other contributors can also be really insightful. As far as I understand, there are certain rules about verbs and cases, such as "accusative+ sevmek" or "ablative+ nefret etmek". Is there a list of common verbs' structure that I could memorise?
"alongside the window" would be something like "Pancereyle yan yana...."
I think if you say "by the window" window is definite, so ben pencereyi kenarinda oturmam istiyorum. May anybody correct me if I am wrong.
If the subject and the pronoun are the same, there's no need for a personal suffix on the gerund. Otherwise you would be saying something like: I like my sitting by the window. The my is redundant here since the sentence already is about me.
Oturmii is sometimes heard from people, but it sounds posh. Try and stick to saying Oturmayı as much as possible.
