I agree. I think it is a good idea to encourage the use of tu rather have students develop a habit of using vous whenever possible so as to avoid concerning themselves with singular/plural pairing with the verb issues.
My understanding is the tu is used in informal situations in general and that while vous indicates respect it also signals social distance. Great if that's what you want but otherwise not so much.
B.A.N.G.S. is a convention devised to assist with positioning adjectives. What actually determines position is more complicated.
Subjective/figurative adjectives precede the noun. Objective/literal adjectives follow. Adjectives that refer to inherent qualities of the noun go in front. Adjectives that classify the noun into categories like shape, color, taste, religion, social class, personality, mood etc. go after. What does all that mean in practice. Beats me.
I guess perfection is more objective than good is, as they are normally used.
But if you bear in mind that all adjectives are subjective to some degree which means that sometimes it just won't be clear how things are the way they are, then use the B.A.G.S. rule and expect exceptions.
By the way, all non descriptive adjectives go in front. IE: demonstrative, indefinite, interrogative, negative and possessive.
Northernguy again to the rescue!. I started a post in reply to our nazanin1 and thought that you'd be onto this with far more correct and informed info, so I cancelled it. However, having read it through a few times I am embarassed to admit that it is over my head. I've had second thoughts as to whether to post here so if there's anyone out there at my poor level of known grammar and intelligence; here is an alternative reply to nazanin1's query.I find that if an adjective seems to be able to fit all of the BANGS rule then it is Not to be used in it.Beauty,Age,Number,Goodness,Size. Adjectives which apply to these headings come Before their noun. "Perfect" can fit all of them.... Perfect appearance. (Beauty) for the soap advert, Perfect "Age" (to play Harry Potter), Perfect Number (to make up the team), Perfect "Goodness" (to become Bishop), Perfect "Size" (Feet for the glass slipper). So Parfait(e) comes after the noun. I am expecting a deluge of debate, but this has so far worked for me.
Hey jackjon, my grammar is sketchy in English, Spanish and French alike. I can't remember most of these rules and the explanations, good as they are, are often over my head. So don't worry. I am gradually picking up bits, thanks to northernguy, sitesurf and many others. " Je ne suis pas un homme parfait "
Very interesting. You are saying that if it fits so many elements of B.A.N.G.S then really it's something else.
Perfect is a good example of the problem. Is being perfect an inherent quality of the woman or is it an aspect of her personality? Is it a subjective perception or an objective classification?
I think what it comes down to is you just get used to putting it in the proper place by means of repetition. When you run into an exceptional usage there is a rule to explain it but otherwise it just comes through practice.
Not much help though, for people coming to this thread looking for answers.
That was a good explanation as well and a very logical treatment of perfection as a concept.
I feel the need to add this: B.A.N.G.S. is NOT A RULE!
It is an acronym that is used to help you remember some adjectives that go in front of a noun. Just because something can fit into one of the categories of BANGS does not mean it goes in front of the noun, it is not a spelling rule.
A tall building is a building with the inherent quality of being tall. A cs4 building is one that is classified to be in the category devised by the city regulations that apply to it. Additionally, tall is subjective whereas cs4 is an objective standard.
Therefore, tall would go in front of the noun and cs4 (whatever the heck the equivalent term would be in French) would follow the noun. B.A.N.G.S. works because most of the adjectives that fall under those terms can be considered to be inherent qualities of the noun rather than some objective standard arrived at by an outside source. However my subjective inherent quality may be your objective personality trait.
Some adjectives are moved from one position to the other depending on the intended meaning. Sitesurf says about ten per cent of adjectives can be handled that way.
Yup! Fine, fine! Damsel=(L) mistress: a person in charge of theatrical props and is used for Both a man and a woman (yes its dated), a woman in a position of authority, (British) a female schoolteacher, the female owner of a dog or cat, the female head of a household (can be the owner or head servant), a woman skilled in a particular subject or activity, a woman having sexual relations with a man and is other than his wife. Mistress can be constricted to Miss which describes an unmarried woman until she is beyond "Marrying" age when she becomes a Spinster. French... difficult/confusing? Yes, it is a Language. :)
Almost, Jadon. If I speak to someone I don't know, a person in authority or such like I will say "Vous". I will also say "Vous" if I am speaking to a crowd. I will say Tu if I speak to someone I am very familiar with or a child, maybe a very friendly dog in the street, my daddy if he is breathing his last breath on his deathbed?! "Tu" is not informal necessarily. It certainly can be formal.... yet familiar. A Mum may scold her child and formally rebuke him but she will certainly address him with "TU" and not "Vous". So "Tu" is Familiar, not Informal. Vous certainly is, however, formal.
Yes it is confusing at first isn't it, Sookatuk. Here is a guide: When Femme is preceded by a possessive....Votre, Ta, Sa it means Wife. Otherwise it's Woman. Epouse can also mean wife (and more) but I am not fluent enough yet to explain that.. All languages have some words which change meanings either in context or determiners.