https://www.duolingo.com/profile/m.tastic

Quenya?

I am thinking of making a Quenya course for English speakers. Although it'll take me a while to consider the benefits and disadvantages, I have a pretty good knowledge of Quenya. After I reach fluency, what would you all think of me suggesting this course? Would adding Quenya make the amount of fictional languages one too many? Anyways, please let me know if you'd like this course, or if you too speak Quenya.

May 3, 2015

109 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lizsue

First, take a look at http://www.tolkienestate.com/en/paths/faq/invented-languages.html . :)

J. R. R. Tolkien seems to have based Quenya on Finnish (see http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/finnquelinks.htm ) and based Sindarin on Welsh (see http://www.k-international.com/blog/welsh-and-elvish/ ).

Duolingo should wait until it already teaches Finnish and Welsh, and until it has the permission of the Tolkien Estate (see http://newlegalreview.cpaglobal.com/language-creators-klingon-rights/ ), before teaching Quenya and Sindarin.

Adding Finnish and Welsh first will be more respectful to Finnish and Welsh cultures, and make Quenya and Sindarin easier to learn for Lord of the Rings fans. :) Quenya will be easier for you to learn if you already know some Finnish, after all.

May 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HappyEvilSlosh

"The archaic language of lore is meant to be a kind of 'Elven-latin', and by transcribing it into a spelling closely resembling that of Latin...the similarity to Latin has been increased ocularly. Actually it might be said to be composed on a Latin basis with two other (main) ingredients that happen to give me 'phonaesthetic' pleasure: Finnish and Greek. It is however less consonantal than any of the three. This language is High-elven or in its own terms Quenya (Elvish)" J.R.R. Tolkien on Quenya.


"the living language of the Western Elves (Sindarin or Grey-elven) is the one usually met [in LotR], especially in names. This is derived from an origin common to it and Quenya, but the changes have been deliberately devised to give it a linguistic character very like (though not identical with) British-Welsh: because that character is one I find, in some linguistic moods, very attractive; and because it seems to fit the rather 'Celtic' type of legends and stories told of its speakers". J.R.R. Tolkien on Sindarin

May 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lizsue

Good thing Greek for English speakers is already on the way here! :)

May 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BipolarAnt

So if someone (possibly Christopher Tolkien) was willing to finish one or both of the Elvin languages (with permission from the Tolkien Estate) using the real languages as a base, we would have a complete language for a course.

March 6, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WCGB

Well, Welsh is already here, so... maybe some form of Neo-Sindarin would be a good idea now that we have Welsh!

March 1, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vytah

Quenya has several disadvantages compared to Klingon:

  • it was never standarised

  • its only creator is dead

  • there is no official way to grow the language

  • vocabulary is pretty scarce

Sindarin is from what I've heard in an even worse state, and I just won't say anything about the other Tolkien languages.

Anyway, it's not like the course would hurt anyone. The Tolkien Estate will probably have to give it an okay, but after that a short course would be viable.

May 4, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/m.tastic

It is difficult to interpret Quenya because it was always a work in progress. Tolkien always changed his mind about a million little things, and some things he mentioned but never showed to the public. But I think I can do it if I interpret some things.

May 5, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VakkerKriger

I think a VERY short course in Quenya would be possible. For humans. With official approval.

May 10, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

I just started using Duo a couple months ago and I had this same thought immediately but I wanted to familiarize myself with the site more and finish the Spanish course before I applied.

I taught myself Quenya from the Ardalambion course last year (http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qcourse.htm) and while I'm not fully fluent, I know enough about the language that I would be comfortable contributing.

For those who don't know much about the language or have never studied it before and might have reservations about a Quenya course, I will give just a few of my comments. Yes, Quenya is an incomplete language with a small vocabulary and JRR Tolkien did change his mind about a few grammatical details throughout his life. However, the course I linked to above is great because it actually explains these thorny details pretty clearly and the author explains what he thinks are the best solutions to these problems to arrive at a third age Quenya (contemporary with the LOTR). And by the end of the course you can say just about anything you want (given the limited vocabulary) without encountering too many of these grammatical uncertainties.

And although the vocabulary is limiting (I haven't counted but I would estimate between 1000-1500 verified words), this can actually be an advantage to the Duo course. Whereas you can finish the Spanish or German tree and have a decent knowledge of those languages but have a woefully small vocabulary compared to a native speaker, the Quenya (and Sindarin) course can boast that someone who completes the whole tree will have a complete mastery of not just the grammar but also the entire known vocabulary. This small vocabulary might turn some people off but I actually think it's sort of an appealing selling point to the Duo course. The only trouble I could see is that the tree will probably be rather small and the course short so the development team will just have to be very creative in writing as many unique sentences as possible to keep the learners interested.

Although I don't know much about Sindarin, my short study of this other elvish tongue gave me the impression that the grammar of Quenya is actually much more certain and consistent than Sindarin (although perhaps a more knowledgeable Quenya and Sindarin scholar could provide more depth or dispute to this point). So if Duo has a Sindarin course listed in their Incubator, I think we should rally some Quenya speakers to catch up and get moving on our own Duo course. I'm going to take a little more time (but not too much) to review my Quenya notes and write an application but I will be applying to the Incubator very soon. Let's make this course happen!

November 13, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/goldberrygirl

I've used the Ardalambion course too! It's a really great resource. The Council of Elrond also a Quenya course but unfortunately it's surface-level and more simple than Arda's. For people seeking to learn more of Quenya's vocabulary, I would suggest looking at TCOE's Quenya to English dictionary; it contains over 2,000 words: http://www.councilofelrond.com/dictionarycats/english-to-quenya.

June 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lexi_Paloma

Excuse me for asking, but what is Quenya?

May 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Delta1212

One of Tolkien's Elvish languages.

May 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/m.tastic

It's one of the main two Elvish languages in LOTR, the other being Sindarin.

May 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/viola_power

I hope someday we could have both of these dialects. Nerds unite! Nothing wrong with made up languages, provided they are not the only one you learn (and that is only an opinion). Actually, even though it is more of a code that a language, I can read gnomish from Artimus Fowl without a key.

May 3, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hunterules1

why does it say Deactivated user? is it because he did not follow the duolingo code of conduct?

February 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

Not necessarily. They could have just deleted their account.

February 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hunterules1

how would you do this? i have an account that my school teacher is following and is kinda creepy. but i made this account and transfered all my lingots to this account. I want to kill my old account because i left my old high school...

February 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnWycliffe

Assuming you still remember the login info for that account, log into it and then mouse over its name on the upper right and click settings. At the bottom of that page is a link titled "Deactivate my account."

February 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/iSamuelHoffman

I am 100% on board with the idea of any LOTR language on Duolingo. I already have been learning them on other websites. I can even say "Greetings" in Entish! (Which takes a long time by the way).

I would even help develop the LOTR languages when they start being made.

July 3, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dthsong2001

Just curious, where did you learn LOTR languages? I've been looking, but I can't find any.....

August 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship (ELF) has a nice website with many resources, including their fantastic journal Vinyar Tengwar (all of the past editions are available in a nicely bound reprinted book). http://www.elvish.org/

Parma Eldalamberon is the other major journal about Tolkein's languages and is also very good, although the website is frustratingly terrible and out of date. http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma21.html

Many people also like to use Ardalambion as a source. I would also support this as an excellent source on all of Tolkien's languages but read my caveat below concerning his Quenya course. http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/

Thorsten Renk also has a good website with Sindarin and Adunaic courses, but against see my caveat below concerning these courses. http://www.science-and-fiction.org/elvish/index.html

And now the caveat: Ardalambion's Quenya course and Thorsten Renk's courses are great fun and good resources but I will stress that even by the end of the courses, you will not be fluent in any of those languages (Quenya, Sindarin, or Adunaic). They are both very open about which parts of their courses are extrapolations or are built upon flimsy evidence and if you are fine accepting their educated guesses, you can write a bit in any of these languages, but still you won't be able to order your dinner at a restaurant and chat with your friends in any form of Elvish (or Adunaic). There are far too many gaps in our knowledge about the grammars of these languages and even much of the vocab. And what we do know is subject to change, as some of the grammar has been pieced together from different times in Tolkien's life and Tolkien was constantly tweaking his languages. So really, while those courses are great fun, they don't perfectly represent "Tolkein's languages", they represent "Neo-Quenya" and "Neo-Sindarin", i.e. those authors' interpretations of what those languages are like or could be.

To emphasize this point, I will against recommend Carl Hostetter's essay "Elvish as She is Spoke" (http://www.elvish.org/articles/EASIS.pdf).

You can have a lot of fun with Tolkien's languages and I encourage you to do so (I certainly have!) but don't get your hopes up that you will be able to speak it fluently. If anyone claims they can "speak" or are "fluent" in Quenya or Sindarin, they are probably actually learning "Neo-Quenya" or "Neo-Sindarin", sometimes without even realizing it. If you are careful you can compose some fairly accurate works in those languages, it just takes a lot of work.

Good luck!

August 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Luko.

I think Duolingo should teach it as Neo-Quenya explicitly, it's the only thing we can get, and although it won't be tolkien's language, it will be a lot like it. Some languages have been returned from death even though not perfectly, and they are now being used, why couldn't an artlang be brought back too?

December 10, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lindor87

For some reason i couldnt reply to your newest comment.

The thing with Norwegian is that they haev 2 official ways to write the language, Bokmål and Nynorsk, and since its official it's more than a dialect.

But in Quenya there are plenty of neo-versions, i knew of 3 just local to sweden due to roleplaying friends. These 3 are totaly different but still based on the same Quenya, but made "easier to speak" in different ways. And sure, they all work, but it is not Quenya, some even refer to themself as simply "elfish"(Alviska in Swedish) to point this out.

Since Tolkien's languages are under copyright the (imo) only way to get something like 'real' quenya wold be if Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate took all notes , released or not, and gave a language proffesor the task of sorting it out. Then we might have something that could be stamped as "official Quenya", it still wouldn't be the Quenya Tolkien himself thought of, but it would be the closest thing to it.

Kinda like what he did with Silmarillion , unfinnished tales and the History of Middle Earth, noone would call them "unofficial", but those scripts were way more complete than quenya is.

December 10, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Luko.

I absolutely agree with you, I hope it can happen

December 12, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

It's actually even a bit more complicated than that though. There are different versions of "Neo-Quenya" based on different authors' opinions, choices, and extrapolations. Take two of the most popular, for example: Helge Kåre Fauskanger's course (http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qcourse.htm) and Thorsten Renk's course (http://www.science-and-fiction.org/elvish/index.html#course_quenya). The first thing you will quickly notice is that they both make different choices or suggestions on the pronouns used in their versions of Neo-Quenya. Granted, pronouns is probably one of the most confusing parts of the language and subject to change every time Tolkien worked on the language but it's also a very important aspect of a language. So should the Duolingo course follow one example or the other? Or should it allow all forms of pronouns Tolkien ever used? It gets complicated fairly quickly. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, it would just be very difficult and I worry that the majority of Duolingo users would blindly learn the language without understanding how much control and decision making power the course creators would have.

December 10, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Luko.

I think course creators should choose the most popular resource, and other important resources should be treated as dialects. Take Norwegian as an example, they started with a Norwegian course and later specified that they were teaching Bokmal, which is a dialect or a specific way of writing the language. Of course it would still be difficult to choose the source. It would be great if the ones who created those resources could make conventions and create the course with that, still difficult, that's why we get High Valyrian instead.

December 10, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dthsong2001

Thanks so much! I'll look into these.

August 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RatonNoir

As much as I would love a Quenya course, I feel as if it is too open to interpretation to make a good course.

November 29, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/veridisqvo

"The inescapable fact is that no one can learn to speak a language without a corrective speaker or model against which to gauge grammaticality and comprehensibility (be it an already fluent speaker or speech community, or a comprehensive, fully descriptive grammar and pedagogical course). Since Tolkien never fixed his languages firmly or described them completely enough to provide any such comprehensive and corrective model (that never being his goal), and since thus even Tolkien himself was never able to speak Quenya or Sindarin fluently or casually (that too never being his goal), it is consequently a further inescapable fact that no one has or ever will be able to speak Quenya and Sindarin, any more than anyone will ever (again) be able to speak, say, Etruscan or any other fragmentarily-attested non-living language."

Source: http://www.elvish.org/FAQ.html

March 20, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

Thank you for providing that. Despite my top comment where I provide several reasons why I do not think Duolingo is an appropriate venue to study these languages, people still comment on here hoping the course will happen, clearly not having read my comment or having studied the language at all to understand its history and purpose.

I would also point people to another quote from the link above:

"How do I learn Quenya and Sindarin?

"That depends on what you mean by "learn". If you mean "learn" in the sense in which one can "learn German" or "learn Japanese", then the short answer is that you can't; see the previous question [part of which the previous poster quoted]. If you mean "learn" in the sense of "learn Gothic" or "learn" any other fragmentarily-preserved, non-living language, then one answer is to read well-researched, thoroughly documented, purely descriptive articles and discussions about the languages, based upon Tolkien's writings and free from artificial, utilitarian agendas; and to do so in conjunction with an independent examination of the data cited to verify claims. But the best way to engage with Tolkien's art-languages is to simply study this evidence for yourself, to read and ponder Tolkien's own compositions and commentaries. It must be remembered that Tolkien is the sole and final authority on his languages; anything not written by Tolkien is strictly speaking not Quenya or Sindarin, but is simply more or less reasonable conjecture based on a selective set of data and supposed facts derived from them.

This is not to say that the artificial, homogenized Quenya presented on Helge Fauskanger's Ardalambion site, or the pseudo-Sindarin inventions of David Salo for Peter Jackson's films, are without interest or merit (but neither are they without serious problems); but rather that meaningful study of Tolkien's languages cannot be achieved simply by mastering the artificial, simplified, patch-work systems of these popularizers. Instead, the study must be always and primarily based and centered on reading, pondering, and understanding the exemplars and statements that Tolkien himself made, in their context and in relation to one another, across the decades of his life and the millennia of internal development they were created by Tolkien to exhibit."

March 20, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Moshe881028

I think that would be great, I know several guys who might be interested in such a course, and I suppose there are many more - Tolkien's fans are numerous...

March 12, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lindor87

I studied Quenya ,from ardalambion, the years prior to the movie release, to some years after the RotK. It is a cool and beautiful language, but its not so practical to be honest. Besides names for avatars / rpg-characters, i've only used it for making a few short texts to roleplay games. Quettaparma Quenyanna /Quenyallo (Wordbook, to Quenya / from Quenya) have all the words that exist as far as is known. I know of a few 'elvish' based on quenya with a more functional vocabulary, but those use both simplified grammar and the words don't achive the same flow as quenya have.

Personaly my conclusion is that Quenya is cool, but not usefull.

edit: http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qcourse.htm Link to the course on Ardalambion

May 4, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NathanaelPaul

how about we vote for this language? I vote YES

May 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NathanaelPaul

wir Brauchen es !!!

May 6, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dthsong2001

Do it!

August 18, 2016

[deactivated user]

    Elvish (both Quenya & Sindarin) are the only conlangs I want to learn I'd love to see it on Duolingo.

    September 29, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TheSpeakingEagle

    Has my vote!

    October 9, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Duncan788385

    I REALLY want to speak Quenya or Sindarin. This language is such a beautiful one. Heck, we already got Klingon going and there is a Game of THrones language in the pipeline.

    November 17, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Duncan788385

    I also found this source for the language's grammar. It is a Wikipedia article, but it has 30 good sources. Here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quenya_grammar

    November 17, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lindor87

    Sorry to break your wish, but you simply can't 'speak' Quenya, sindarin, or any other of Tolkien's languages.

    A long explanation of why can be found here: http://www.elvish.org/FAQ.html#general

    Funny sidenote, the sources the wiki-article quotes (Parma Eldarlamberon and Vinyar tengwar) are given out by elvish.org. So even with all that grammar they still say 'can't be spoken/learnt as a real language'.

    November 30, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Thank you. I get tired of being the bearer of bad news. Apparently no one bothers to read the whole thread. Or even just the top comment where I explain exactly the problems a Quenya or Sindarin course would create. Not that I'm opposed to teaching and learning these languages, but I'm not convinced that Duolingo is an appropriate platform.

    November 30, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ElijahCFGolpe

    Knowing that things like Klingon and High Valyrian have reached the Incubator, I think it's only a matter of time before Quenya reaches the Incubator. And totally should too! I have a friend who tried to learn it and I dunno how far she got in it, but man, she was all into it and I'm very happy about that. I would love to reread The Hobbit and LOTR series and get into it more. Although I want Duolingo to do more real languages, if this is how it'll be, then why not? I think it's super cool and to speak Quenya would be astonishing to hear.

    November 25, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Please read the other comments I have made in this thread, particularly the top comment. I explain why I don't think Quenya and Sindarin would make good Duolingo courses. Klingon and High Valyrian are quite different languages, being both more complete and with a living creator who can answer questions (in the case of High Valyrian, the creator is actually a course contributor!).

    November 30, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ElijahCFGolpe

    I did that just now, don't worry, I was never planning on learning it myself, but to hear people speak Quenya would've been cool. But yeah, Neo-Quenya isn't exactly what Tolkien would've wanted I'm sure, and regardless, Duolingo only does so much, so I agree. I'm still firm on the fact that I think Duolingo should focus on other, more developed languages that are intricately made like Esperanto and Evolved Languages like Spanish and French, etc. Really cool though, I love how you studied it so intensively!

    December 2, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Noldoaran

    I think this would be an amazing!

    January 2, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/huge_lotr_fan

    I know Quenya pretty well and would gladly contribute to that course! I would also love to see a Sindarin course added...

    January 19, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shelby32960

    Yes please! I have always wanted to learn this language!

    April 29, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/william205851

    It would be very interesting to see a Quenya course added. Out of all Tolkien's languages, its grammar is the least based on speculation. Compared to Khuzdul or even Sindarin, it's fairly complete. Also, I'm curious as to if we should include lessons on its Tengwar mode, as I think its quirks add a sense of validity and a believable aspect to the language, such as the use of historical spelling regarding the the "silmë" and "súlë" characters.

    June 25, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/HannaDymava

    as a huge fan of Tolkien i would be extremely interested

    August 2, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PotatoSanta

    There will never be too many languages here, I would add it

    May 3, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GuillermoD887679

    I'd love it!

    May 7, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    I posted in this thread before that I would consider applying as a contributor after I had studied the language a bit more. But after spending several months diving into Quenya deeper than I have before, I am convinced that a Quenya course for Duolingo would be very difficult and would need to be done with much care. I still think it would be amazing but I am not sure that I trust myself with the burden.

    The problem is that Tolkien's languages were made for his own amusement and not for practical use. Not only does this mean that the vocabulary is limited, it also means that we know nothing about discourse in these languages and furthermore because it was Tolkien's private hobby for decades before Quenya and Sindarin were used in the LOTR, there are many different versions of these languages and even the publication of the LOTR did not stop him from tinkering with them. Even the iconic greeting that Frodo uses "Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo" was changed in later editions. The earlier form was "Elen sila lumenn' omentielmo."

    Which brings up the point of why it would be so difficult (perhaps not impossible, but extremely tricky) to create a Duolingo course on Quenya. The ending -vo/-mo in the above phrase is a first person plural pronominal ending (specifically "our"). So which ending should be used in the course? The original or the one Tolkien used later? Indeed, the pronouns in Quenya tend to be quite slippery and Tolkien changed his mind about them (and many other things) just about every time he sat down to write something! Mixing and matching from different documents and different periods of Tolkien's life does not accurately represent Quenya, it creates a new language based on Quenya ("Neo-Quenya") which might derive from Tokien's language but is emphatically not the language that Tolkien created.

    And the problems only start there. Many aspects of Quenya grammar are fraught with this type of fluctuation in Tolkien's many conceptions of the language. Any website out there claiming that it can teach you to write or speak Quenya is actually teaching you that author's particular amalgamation of the language, a "Neo-Quenya" version created by them and based on Tolkien but definitively not Tolkien.

    In my opinion, the problem is even worse for Sindarin. Quenya generally has much better documentation and a much longer history. If you go to the Duolingo Incubator, you will see that you can apply as a Sindarin course contributor. I fear that if such a course were made, though, it would actually (necessarily) be a form of Neo-Sindarin. Indeed, if the course were based on David Salo's Sindarin that is used in the movies, I would have to decry it as something wholly different from Tolkien's Sindarin. For a few of Salo's book on Sindarin, see

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lambengolmor/conversations/topics/760

    If you want an even more comprehensive explanation of the several points I have made above about why a course in Quenya (and even more so in Sindarin) would be extremely difficult and should only be attempted with the utmost care, consideration, and trepidation, the following article is a must read:

    http://www.elvish.org/articles/EASIS.pdf


    In short, I think Quenya and Sindarin can be used for composition in interesting ways if the writer is careful and has a deep understanding of the histories of the languages and is able to take that into account in their composition. But I am not convinced that this can be taught effectively through a Duolingo course. The course would end up being overly simplistic to avoid errors or to constrain itself to only the most basic and consistent aspects of grammar (and therefore not of much help to the aspiring elvish student) or it would be a full language course that necessarily deviates from Tolkien's Quenya and instead uses a form of Neo-Quenya that does not necessarily conform to Tolkien's conception of the language.

    April 22, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VakkerKriger

    Yeah, I was gonna say... you will never be "fluent" in Quenya as it wasn't made for anyone to be. Unless you're an elf, of course. ;)

    May 10, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/goldberrygirl

    I absolutely agree with you. Any course made on Quenya is going to be imperfect because we do not know Tolkien's final decisions on many aspects of his grammar, and therefore Quenya enthusiasts have to do too much guessing, which means that everyone's Quenya is a little bit different. Even the Quenya words for twelve and boy are not specifically attested, but simply educated guesses. Learning Quenya is a bit like making a puzzle -- you have to gather all the little scraps and pieces you can find to create a coherent picture, and despite your best efforts the picture still isn't going to be completely coherent.

    In addition, there's apparently still a lot of unpublished Tolkien material floating out in the ether, which is frustrating for all the Tolkien geeks in the world. To know that the clarification to a bit of sketchy grammar may exist out there, but that we can't get our hands on it...UGH! :(

    June 5, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sammoreland

    This is an awesome idea! I don't think it would be one too many fictional languages either, since Sindarin is already in the first phase of development.

    September 27, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Actually, I don't think Sindarin is in any kind of development. It is listed in the Incubator's application drop-down menu so people can apply to contribute to the course but as far as I know no one is actually working on developing a Sindarin course right now (nor should they be, in my opinion-see above). The course is not actually listed in the Incubator (unlike Klingon, for example, which is being actively developed and is listed in the Incubator): https://incubator.duolingo.com/

    I really wish Duolingo would remove it from the application drop-down to avoid confusion because you're not the first person to make that mistake and think that a Sindarin course is actually under development.

    September 27, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kingjosiah8

    I would love it to be a language!

    December 31, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/infinityhappycat

    I'd love to learn Quenya!

    January 17, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ben996134

    Quenya would be great!

    January 27, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gand

    Great idea. I'm surprised we already have Klingon and the language from GoT and we do not have Quenya, Sindarin or basica of the Black Speech :) Best to my knowledge Q and S were developed much more than Klingon or GoT. I know there are some courses also available on the internet (20 years ago even I had a webpage where we had some basics), but a Duo course is a Duo course - best way to learn. Hope you'll find the time :)

    September 7, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Actually, our knowledge of Klingon and Valyrian is far greater than our knowledge of Quenya or Sindarin. See here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/24074665

    In short, Klingon and Valyrian have a more developed vocabulary, a more consistent and better-understood grammar, much more is known about their conversational use, and (of course) their creators are still alive and actively creating new material/words for the languages (and are available for comment when a question about how to use the language comes up). David Peterson, who created Dothraki and Valyrian for GoT, is even the main contributor for the Valyrian Duo course.

    September 7, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/.Darth.Solo.

    I agree. Look how fast Valyrian came up, it wasn't even in beta not to mention finished last week, and a few weeks before that wasn't even being made!

    September 7, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gand

    Wow! Didn't know, and even wouldn't expect that Klingon and Valyrian are so much in a better state. But of course, having the author alive helps :) plus (I need to say that as a huge fan of Tolkien) standing on the shoulders of giants... and with nowadays technology, everything is going so fast! Thanks for the explanation and for the link! I still hope we'll somehow manage to have a decent (neo) Q and S courses :)

    September 7, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gand

    BTW I believe that for most of us (even if it sounds a bit ignorant), it would matter that we can learn something close (as close as possible) to the Q or S. I believe 99% wouldn't care if actually parts of the neoQ/S were recreated on well-based deduction and guesses, provided all that is missing.

    September 7, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sasha686967

    Please please please!! You HAVE to make a Quenya course!!!!!! I have been looking everywhere for a Quenya teacher now you have to make the course!!! I love Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit!! Elvish is my favorite language! I even signed up for the Klingon course.

    December 26, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Leanne590845

    Please! I would love to learn

    August 28, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gallos80

    If you make it I'll learn it gladly

    November 3, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/swingbeatnik7

    I would really like this course

    December 20, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/enhendrickson

    Yes please!

    March 12, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NathanaelPaul

    I definitely think that you should create this course. I am a Lord of the rings fan, and I would love to learn the language. PLEASE CREATE IT

    April 22, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lindor87

    http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qcourse.htm from Ardalambion is the most complete course that i know of. And Quettaparma Quenyanna & Quenyallo are the dictionaries.

    May 4, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NathanaelPaul

    I really hope you create this language, because I love LOTR (Lord Of The Rings)

    May 11, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BarbaraS0

    Yes, that would be awesome!

    June 11, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Please read the whole thread. I give a pretty detailed explanation above for why Quenya and Sindarin would not make good Duolingo courses.

    June 20, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/iSamuelHoffman

    I am a big LOTR fan, and I agree it would be awesome, but you do need to know LOTR history. It changed a lot. I already know the history of the languages. But I think Duolingo could make a course. They give the option to explain words, so I think they could explain it as they teach it. They're making Klingon, and that's from Star Trek, so why not languages from LOTR? I think they would be great courses.

    July 12, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BarbaraS0

    Ah, well I'm interested in learning it, not why it wouldn't be a good Duo course.

    July 12, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Oh, I'm not discouraging anyone from learning more about Quenya. I just don't think learning it via Duolingo would be the best medium. It requires a much more involved study of the history and development of the language over time.

    July 12, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BarbaraS0

    Real languages have more history behind their development than fictional languages so I don't see why Duo wouldn't work for Quenya but does for the multitude of real-world languages it offers.

    July 12, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Read my post above and this: http://www.elvish.org/articles/EASIS.pdf

    Real languages have internal history; they have changed over time but you can learn the modern form of the language. Quenya has not only internal history of its development from ancient elven roots but also the external history of Tolkien's creation of the language and Tolkien changed his mind constantly about certain points of grammar. He even changed things after they were published in LOTR. There are even discrepancies and uncertainties with the vocabulary. So which grammar and vocabulary would we use for a Duo course? Any choice you make to include some point but exclude another is a step further in creating your own "Quenya" which is distinct from Tolkien's Quenya. To really understand and parse the development of Quenya over Tolkien's lifetime takes a careful study of the (external) history of the language, which is something Duolingo is ill-suited to perform, in my opinion.

    July 12, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/pugke

    Yes please

    June 20, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Please read the whole thread. I give a pretty detailed explanation above for why Quenya and Sindarin would not make good Duolingo courses.

    June 20, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/esghald

    Which means what, exactly? The development will stay as is? Just a potential quirk? Than duolingo should be informed to drop the project altogether. And refrain from opening it again.

    In addition your previous comment states a bit to the opposite of the course being "not good". But I'm just saying. From my point of view better this than klingon.

    July 3, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/radikian

    For a linguist, Quenya should be like a passtime!! :D

    July 7, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/roniblack

    Wow, great idea! I want to learn Quenya!

    July 19, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BLOOd574

    Have there been any developments on this so far?

    October 18, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    It is not in development.

    November 3, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ladysherlockian

    I tried the High Valyrian course, even though I am not a big fan of Game of thrones, the course is fun :) I guess it would be wonderful to have a Quenya course, I could never motivate myself to learn the language, even though I love Tolkien's books. With Duoling, it would be much easier to finally learn Quenya !

    October 21, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BalletLover22

    I would love to learn Quenya! While you are waiting for a course, though, you can learn it on Memrise. I am! :D

    November 3, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MadisonSel13

    This is a great idea. I don't speak Quenya but would love to learn it. When I saw that Klingon and High Valeryian were becoming available I was excited but also disappointed that Quenya hadn't made the cut yet. I hope somebody is able to make this into an actual course soon.

    November 21, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eard_Stapa

    Klingon and High Valerian are much more developed and well-understood as languages (and their creators are still alive and active); this is just one reason why a Quenya course has not been developed.

    Read this for more info: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/24074665

    November 21, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FatmaMarta

    is there would be a course of quenya you would join for sure - I'm big Tolkien fan

    December 1, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SeatownJ

    Interesting... but I could see two main issues tying up the development of such a course.

    The most obvious complication would be that someone would have to develop a Tengwar (or Cirth) keyboard for the course. There are already flash options available on Tolkien fansites that such a keyboard could be based off of... unfortunately, those Tengwar keyboards probably wouldn't work well with the layout for a course on a mobile device - meaning someone would have to develope a Tengwar keyboard with the Duolingo app in mind. Developing a keyboard with thirty-six regularly formed letters (not sure how irregularly formed Tengwar letters would be implemented) and an option for adding the Tehtar diacritics (there isn't even an easy way to add niqqud in the Hebrew course yet) would be quite the undertaking... but certainly something that could be done by someone with enough passion for it.

    The other complication is due to the language itself. Like all artificial languages from a fictional source, the language itself focuses on concepts from the realm it comes from - not things from our world and everyday life. Due to the language's inherent limitations, someone (or some hardcore group of fans regulating the language) has to come up with new words to describe things out of everyday life. My guess is that was the sort of complication that was tying up the Klingon Duolingo course. As far as Quenya is concerned, words to describe things like the Internet, electricity, school, bicycles, cars (etc.) would all have to be developed and agreed upon.

    Still, even with all the complications, I think the concept of a Quenya course would be quite fascinating.

    December 28, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bubbagump2003

    yes

    February 2, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kalashnikitty

    I have been kind of looking at a few phrases of quenya, but I haven't been able to actually study it. I there is a duolingo course for it eventually, I will definitely use it.

    February 10, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SadieCat223

    I love the idea of adding Quenya.

    February 13, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YuriFilth

    I love it! I wont lear Quenya!! I learning english and Germani

    February 15, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MichaelWar622365

    I have been learning Quenya for years, but I must say I struggle because there are not many people to practice with. :-)

    I would enjoy having it here, if only for the community feeling

    February 15, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Austrerican12

    I would love this course! I've always wanted to learn Quenya and it would be great to have a duolingo course on it!

    May 8, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LongHenry

    Remember you need to have lots of upvotes on the request before they will consider adding it. About 800-1000 upvotes will go a long way to convincing the admins.

    June 30, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ScottKBeck

    Quenya

    August 28, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/stf29

    Hey i had the same idea and would love this course, but i have one question. is sindarin the same as quenya?

    August 31, 2018

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rosamond126617

    I think that they should add any if not all of J.R.R. Tolkien's brilliant languages. If they can add Klingon and a language from Game of Thrones then why not from Tolkien?

    February 7, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Maskakota

    I don't speak it, but I would love to learn Quenya, I've been wanting to learn Elvish for years

    February 17, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Opasmaus

    no please please please do it!!!!

    March 27, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Aquila616673

    I would LOVE to learn it.

    April 5, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gracieace1

    I want to learn this sooooooooo bad!!

    July 10, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gracieace1

    I want it

    July 10, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/eimtu

    Are any of you still thinking of doing this course? I've been studying Quenya for years, and I consider myself almost as fluent as you can be. I put in a request to create the course a while back but never got a response. I understand that no one can truly be fluent, but now that Valyrian and Klingon have courses, I don't see why Quenya shouldn't have one, or why the mods wouldn't want one.

    August 14, 2019

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Vaesse

    I am extremely interested in a Duolingo Quenya course. It was the first thing I looked for when I signed up. I settled for a refresher of my Spanish, but this is the language I'm most interested in learning.

    Meanwhile, I'm working my way through Mr. Fauskanger's Ardalambion course and am fully aware of the difficulties of teaching this as a language. (And I have read this entire thread...)

    September 4, 2019
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