"Kilise nerede?"

Translation:Where is the church?

3 years ago

33 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/keith.e.sanders

Aha, so that is the locative ending -de on a root "nere" meaning "where", right? That will help me to remember that it means "where" amongst all these new question words... (and I suspect we'll see it with dative, ablative and other endings to indicate "to where", "from where" etc. as we go along? maybe?)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Selcen_Ozturk
Selcen_Ozturk
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exactly. nereye (to where), nereden (from where), nereli (from where, as in city/country of origin) etc also exist

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nastouj

Why do we pronounce sometimes the second «e» in nerEde, and sometimes we say «nerde» without the second «e»??

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
AlexinNotTurkey
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"nerede" would be the standard pronunciation but many people say "nerde." In colloquial spoken Turkish, both are fine. In standard, formal Turkish, you cannot use "nerde" :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Nastouj

Thank you

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JamesTWils
JamesTWils
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Does the K palatalize to a CH sound before I? This sounds for all the world like "Chilise nerede" when she says it.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Selcen_Ozturk
Selcen_Ozturk
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no it doesnt and I dont hear that

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JamesTWils
JamesTWils
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It is simply my very old, very American ears, then. Thank you.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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It's not your ears, James T. Wilson. Not only does the "K" sound like "Ch," but also the "l" sounds like a "v." If other people do not hear this, it may have something to do with the variations between computers.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
AlexinNotTurkey
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In response to this, it should be the same sound file regardless of computer. Now, things like your speakers or headphones might affect it, but probably not. :) It is a pretty good pronunciation actually, I find.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tjasonham
tjasonham
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This is 2 months old and everyone is blaming headphones or speakers or alternate recordings, hehe. Not so.

Here's why, as explained by Wikipedia:

In native Turkic words, the velar consonants /k, ɡ/ are palatalized to [c, ɟ] (similar to Russian) when adjacent to the front vowels /e, i, ø, y/. Similarly, the consonant /l/ is realized as a clear or light [l] next to front vowels (including word finally), and as a velarized [ɫ] next to the central and back vowels /a, ɯ, o, u/. These alternations are not indicated orthographically: the same letters ⟨k⟩, ⟨g⟩, and ⟨l⟩ are used for both pronunciations.

I'm not even going to attempt to "palatalize" my K because I have no idea what a 'c' sounds like in IPA, lol. But the tip about the L is useful. The same sound exists in Portuguese.

Edit: oh, it's the difference between the word "key" in English and "qui" in French. I can see how an English speaker would interpret that as a "ch" sound since TTS can be muffled, but it's definitely more K-ish.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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You went to a lot of trouble to explain this technically, tjasonham, but regardless of what anyone else may say, I did hear two different recordings of this phrase. Maybe one of them exists only in the Twilight Zone, but if so then I must have been in the Twilight Zone myself when I heard it.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tjasonham
tjasonham
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@swuonkalini hehe ok! I hope it at least cleared up why the K might sound different anyway. :)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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Aha, now we have the explanation: there is one recording with the "Ch" pronunciation and one with the expected pronunciation. What one hears depends on which recording is being listened to.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AlexinNotTurkey
AlexinNotTurkey
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That is not true...there are no recording for this course actually. It is all a Text-to-Speech software and it reads all sentences the same :) Sometimes, things change with speed though.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Selcen_Ozturk
Selcen_Ozturk
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@Squonkalini this is not possible, we have only one recording (coming from the text to speech program). If you heard different things, it is perhaps because of your sound system. There is no possibility to have different recordings for a sentence

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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I don't know much about technology and I don't know how you define "recording," but "Kilise nerede" shows up twice in this lesson and the pronunciation of the first word is different the first time from the second. And it has nothing to do with speed, they are at the same speed. I certainly would not have bothered to type my comment that begins with "Aha," if there were not a marked difference between the two pronunciations. The different versions explain how James T. Wilson and I heard one thing and Selcen_Ozturk heard another. I'm afraid, AlexinNot Turkey, that IT IS TRUE!!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VynM
VynM
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L'église!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DyedBison
DyedBison
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I noticed that, too. Is "kilise" an import from Greek?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/guupi
guupi
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I think it is: η εκκλησία (ekklēsía). Also there are Spanish la iglesia, Italian la chiesa, Portuguese a igreja, Catalan la església. Even Basque (eliza) and Welsh (eglwys) imported it from Greek. May I introduce the world's best (albeit a bit eurocentric) translator: http://ukdataexplorer.com/european-translator/?word=church

German Kirche, Engl. church, Dutch kerk, Danish and Norwegian kirke, Swedish kyrke, Finnish kirkko and Estonian kirik all come from a Greek word too: κυριακός (kȳriakós 'belonging to the Lord'). Even some Slavic words like Russian церковь and its Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian, Bulgarian and Ukrainian counterparts stem from κυριακός - in case you wondered :)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Markus_H

"Kyrka" in Swedish.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ChiBegam

You can use the same word "Kelisa (Keleesa)" in Persian also.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/P8W7k
P8W7k
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And "Eaglais" in Irish!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/evasamsonoff

If it can also be translated as "where is THE church", why aren't we using accusative for "the church"? if we're talking about a specific (definite) church

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VynM
VynM
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Because it's the subject, not an object. "Where is the church? The church is in …".

But it would have to be in the accusative in "Do you see the church?", because there "you" is the subject and "church" is the direct object (of the verb "see").

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/evasamsonoff

So it is not possible to have TWO cases at the same time?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VynM
VynM
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No, one word (noun/pronoun) cannot have two cases at the same time. The subject of the sentence will have nominative case; the direct object has accusative, etc.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/evasamsonoff

Thank you so much, this has just made my life easier. Take another Lingot )))

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/VynM
VynM
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Thank you!!!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/apporva4

i hate it when articles are not explicitly written in turkish statements.. like here the(accusative) is not written

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/guupi
guupi
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Definite articles are never written in Turkish, they don't exist. And in this case, kilise is the subject (=nominative, not accusative).

I guess what you mean is the fact that indefinite accusatives are not marked as accusative, but rather remain in the subject form, e.g.:

Ben (subject) kahve (accusative object) içiyorum. = I drink coffee.

Only when you use a definite accusative, you have to employ the accusative suffix: Ben kahveYI içiyorum. = I drink THE coffee.

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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Whatever the explanation for the difference in pronunciation of "Kilise" may be, it does exist and it is weird.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Squonkalini
Squonkalini
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Yes, tjasonham, thank you for your input!

2 years ago
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