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"La du gepatroj estas la patro kaj la patrino."

Translation:The two parents are the father and the mother.

3 years ago

154 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/jumpthewalls
jumpthewalls
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Ne ĉiam :p

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Skapata
Skapata
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Ge- implies both genders. So, if they are two, they must be a man and a woman.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StephieRice
StephieRice
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It implies them inclusively, not exclusively. Gepatro for instance means any and all parents regardless of gender, or simply parents. It does not mean "mother and father".

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Pakislav
Pakislav
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Why not just have a word for parents, for father and for mother? Why is mother patrino instead of the most sensible matrino or matro? I'm really starting to be disappointed with Esperanto. Gender should never even be a thing. You'd think that a constructed language would be logical, tidy and neat.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MurphyCharlie

There is an offspring language called Ido which fixes this problem. But, it is far less spoken than Esperanto.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BlankName1

Far less spoken. Like, no one cares.

9 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StephieRice
StephieRice
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Simply because it makes the language simpler. If you have a declension for gender then you don't need a new root word to refer to genders of the same type of thing.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/King513

Stop being a SJW on duolingo please

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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Even today gender is still a thing, we can't expect Esperanto to be different from other languages considering that it was created in 1887.

About the current issue, it seems that we just use gepatroj with a gender neutral meaning, even if ge- isn't gender neutral, it seems the most common solution to this case. Except if I missed something?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BlankName1

Romance languages for example nearly all words are gendered. Male or female. Changing that woulf be rediculous and it wouldnt be the same language after the change. Esperanto compared to that is nothing.

9 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Shareni8

It is logical, tidy, and neat. You know why? Because it uses affixes to simplify the vocabulary, and make it easier to understand. Your sjw bitching goes against that. Gender is a thing, and should be a thing. If you think otherwise you have some serious issues

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Owen5076
Owen5076
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Bone diris :)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StephieRice
StephieRice
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Jes, ne cxiam :) La gepatroj de mia infano estas lia patrino kaj lia patrino

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kbulygin
kbulygin
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Hence the la's.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tadeo_Servin
Tadeo_Servin
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Always

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ssoorrnnaa

I find it so strange that the "opposite" of father, patro is patrino. I know that's the style of the language, to cut down on unnecessary words but I feel like matro would come much more easily for mother! Just a thought.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

This has occurred in some splinter groups of Esperanto, but since it is so laborious to then overhaul the rest of the language to have their own words for males and females, it is easier to just let it be. I personally believe in the icx/sxli movement where patro would mean one parent (gender undefined), patricxo would mean father, and patrino would mean mother, and additionally sxli (a combination of sxi and li) would mean a pronoun for a person that does not label their gender, the speaker does not know it, or it is superfluous.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ArturYeon

I know many Esperantists are annoyed by all the calls for reform (thinking of a certain fiasco, maybe rightfully so), but Gender just isn't what it used to be in the ducking 19th century and this is the one thing that I really detest about the language.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StephieRice
StephieRice
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Honestly it is irrelevant. I am trans myself and Esperanto poses no issues for me speaking or listening.

It already covers gender in the way it needs to and you can use it to speak of people without referring to gender as well.

La homo estas bela = the person is beautiful

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zuoanqh
zuoanqh
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you could also say "gxi" estas bela, like Zamenhof did.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Keniko1

But there is no 'official' gender neutral way to refer to family members, and there's not a uniform way that fits with the other aspects of the language to distinguish that something is male (vira is mot precise)

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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Non native English speaker here: Are there more or less gender issues in Esperanto compared to English?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Siavel

I'd say it's about equal; however, there are differences.

In EO, the gender issues are largely semantics and the debates are about whether reform is necessary and what would be the best way to reform.

On the other hand, in EN, the gender issues are cultural and the debate is on whether or not two gender, no gender, and/or trans gender people exist, leading to a more hostile backlash against gender reform in the language.

However, EN is not a gendered language, so there are a lot more gender neutral words such as "parent", "spouse", and "they" that can be used to skirt around gendered terminology.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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Interesting, so we have an example of a language that didn't influenced the culture. One of the arguments against US English as an international language is that the USA culture comes through the language. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the phenomenon has at least some limits.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tiger8255
tiger8255
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Ido handles it quite a bit better, but sadly there are few speakers and fewer teachers.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BlankName1

Uh, im not sure if you know but many languages are like this. Also it helps cut down on words

9 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Emily.Neuendorf
Emily.Neuendorf
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It is kind of tricky since people see Esperanto as being able to change on a dime since it's an engineered language. It isn't supposed to evolve like other languages, that's the beauty. Just leave it be and let it be a simple language as intended.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sukram1947

Mensogulo ne mensogis kiam li diris ke la hodiaŭa Esperanto-parolado ne estas la sama kiel antaŭ cent jaroj. Li tute pravas! Bonvolu, se vi lin (kaj min) ne kredas, legi, ekzemple, la ĵurnalon "Le Monde Diplomatique en Esperanto". La artikoloj parolas pri ĉio, precize kaj klare, uzante vortojn kiuj, kompreneble, ne ekzistis antaŭ kelkaj jardekoj. La frazkonstruado (k.e. la esenco de Esperanto) tamen restis netuŝita. Kaj tio estas la miraklo de la Lingvo Internacia.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/trezapoioi1
trezapoioi1
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If it starts unnecessarily changing, there's also a risk of different "branches" drifting from each other, which would be ridicolous for a hope-to-be global language. It's not easy to get all the esperanto speakers, who are shattered on the whole world, to be informed and to accept a change, unless it's just a new word. This language is already plenty elastic and this is what should be exploited

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BlankName1

Exactly. Esperanto was also built to be simple and easy to learn. That's why there are so many suffixes such as -ino. Its to cut down on the amount of root words

9 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NicolasDaL698501

And that's why a simple new suffix like -iĉ- for masculine would solve the gender problem elegantly. Because it is simply in the spirit of the language.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mensogulo
mensogulo
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Kvankam Esperanto estas artfarita lingvo, ĝi nature ŝanĝas dum la tempo (samtiel kiel aliaj lingvoj ŝanĝas). La lingvo de hodiaŭ ne estas sama kiel la lingvo unu centjaro antaŭ.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

Yeah, it isn't supposed to evolve like other languages because we people in Esperanto sit down together and make a conscious decision to change the language while other languages change because of humanity's continuing march of progress and change. Sure, it makes a hell of a lot of irregularities, but at least it fits to describing our time. We need to change this part of Esperanto, or be left in the dust.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sixtails

If someone identifies as ambiguous, or if the gender is unknown, "Ŝli" seems to be nearly natural. At least you'll get the point across. Though in English, "they" also works (A convict escaped. They are crossing the sea). I don't think that's acceptable in Esperanto though, if "Ili" is explicitly plural. So before getting into political issues, there doesn't seem to be a way to refer to someone who's gender is unknown. -iĉi sounds like a good idea. It sounds a bit asymmetric to me to refer to a group of boys and girls as "knaboj" and then an explicit group of girls as "knabinoj", since there's no word for an explicit group of boys. I guess you can say "La knaboj kaj knabinoj", "La knaboj" and "La knabinoj" to make it more explicit, but that sounds like work. The thing is with "Ŝli" and -iĉo" is that your just adding words, not modifying others, so it's less intrusive. But then again that might just be my English idioms crossing over to Esperanto.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/J.F.Sweeney

The pronoun ĝi is exactly intended to refer to someone whose gender is unknown. It is not equivalent to English "it" in this application.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

I'm sorry, but I am going to need to disagree with you wholeheartedly. "Ĝi" is only used in the sense of a third-person non-living thing, and does not have the additional usage of referring to a person. Sure, some people in Esperanto use it that way, but it's better to use "ŝli" for that sense.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sukram1947

Sorry, MailmanSpy, but you take your whishes or beliefs for reality when they are not. There is actuelly a reference in Esperanto, it is PIV (Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto / http://vortaro.net/) regularly updated. We should never forget this reference.

In PIV, there is no mention of "ŝli". This word does not exist. On the other hand, under "ĝi", you find " *ĝi. Pronomo uzata por referenci aŭ al senseksa realaĵo aŭ al estaĵo, kies sekson oni ne bezonas precizigi: la tranĉilo tranĉas bone, ĉar ĝi estas akra; la infano ploras, ĉar ĝi volas manĝi." You get the same answer in all reference dictionaries (e.g http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/).

So oscarmatic is perfectly right: Ĝi is not equivalent to English "it". The pronoun ĝi is used to refer to something without gender or to someone whose gender does not need to be specified.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StephieRice
StephieRice
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I don't mean to sound rude although I acknowledge that it may come across that way.

"Ŝli" is not better to use as it is not even defined. "Ĝi" on the other hand is defined to refer to beings without referring to sex. http://vortaro.net/#%C4%9Ci

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sukram1947

Dear Tuxayo: I am not qualified to answer your question, so I won't. I will rather refer to the wise comment you posted elsewhere in this forum: "(...) About the current issue, it seems that we can just use gepatroj with a gender neutral meaning, even if ge- isn't gender neutral. It seems the most common solution to this case." I agree with you, and actually this works perfectly in Esperanto conversations.... for the plural form!

Now, if you want to use the singular, with no reference to gender, then you get into trouble in many languages. For example, if you want to talk about a teacher, (male or female), in English you are blocked. Shall you use He or She. Nowaday English opted for They, but this is far from being OK! In Esperanto, you have the same problem, but not because of Esperanto - which tells us to use "ĝi" -, but because of the foreign language speakers who "export" their gender issue into Esperanto. It seems that they simply can't see that ĝi is NOT equivalent to the simple "it" in English.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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Sukram1947: Can we use ĝi even when we know someone's gender but it's not relevant to what we want to say? When looking at the definition I'm not sure whether such use would be tolerated.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/minombreespollo

I can't get my head around why this comment has so many downvotes.

Havu lingoto!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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Thank you Sukran1947 for your explanations, it's more clear now.

(for some reason my question appears after your answer which makes hard following the thread)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kholden83

"It sounds a bit asymmetric to me to refer to a group of boys and girls as "knaboj"" "geknaboj" is the word you want there. There is an indicator for a mixed group of gendered nouns in Esperanto: the ge- prefix. Used in this discussion's topic sentence, even.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/.soleil

"Ŝli" always makes me think of "he-she", so I personally wouldn't want to use it for myself or be referred to that way. I wouldn't be able to NOT think of it when I hear it. But if somehow, ŝli was made the official pronoun for a person with an unknown or nonbinary gender, I'd just accept it.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AbigailSwyrl

I believe there's a gender-neutral pronoun, "ri"?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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It doesn't seem accepted enough and has few issues: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ri#Esperanto

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/alien_surfer

I don't like "Patriĉo", and also why would it be a problem? Why can't you just imagine that the original form is -ino and then it transforms into -o?... I have to use "La" which is female in spanish, all the time and I don't care, it sounds beautiful

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

Other than gender neutrality, my opinion is also swayed by a ambiguity standpoint as well. Some words in Esperanto, such as "amiko", can be either "gender neutral-friend" or "male-friend', but without sufficient context, it can either of them. With the -icx suffix, there is no ambiguity, and "amiko" would always be translated as "gender neutral-friend"

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sukram1947

Yes, MailmanSpy, some words in Esperanto, such as "amiko", can be either "gender neutral-friend" or "male-friend'. But BASICALLY, all words in Esperanto are "gender-free", neutral. "Amiko" is firstly a friend without any sexual connotation. "Miaj amikoj" means "my friends", not "my male friends". It's only when you want to specify, that you are going to use "amikinoj", viraj amikoj", etc.

Now, where is the problem? We should not create problems where there is none! Start speaking Esperanto, and you'll see that there is just no issue about all that. We should concentrate on learning the language instead of polluting these forums with endless personal gender problems.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

Yes, singular, words in Esperanto have generally evolved to become more gender-neutral over time, but for words like "patro", you cannot apply a gender-neutral meaning, thus the "-iĉ" suffix would be useful in this case. The "-iĉ" suffix isn't about polluting esperanto with endless personal gender problems; it's an actually useful suffix that can be used when you don't know the gender of the person you're referring to or some animal. Other major languages have had neutral grammatical genders for a long time, so this isn't some SJW crusade but a easy fix to the confusing evolution and development of gender in Esperanto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_reform_in_Esperanto

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jimnice
jimnicePlus
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To me, whenever i see "patrino", my mind envisions "mother" not some version of she-father. What is important in the end is the meaning of the word and not its formation.

This is related to the controversy over the English word "woman" being formed from "man". which also strikes me as silly. As neither English nor Esperanto are not going to be changed easily, I suggest it is simpler in the end just to sigh and live with it.

Actually, I think the solution may be in the hands of the Esperanto speakers themselves. How? Just USE the form "matro"; it will be understood and eventually, with enough usage by enough speakers, become a part of the language by default.

It will be easier than changing the use of "woman" to something different in the English speaking world!

l know this will be an unpopular opinion, but it is the one I get to live with and I hope there may be a few who agree with me.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sphinx1824
Sphinx1824
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Actually, "woman" and "man" in English come from two separate (or maybe more like semi-separate) origins. "Man" used to be a term for the human race as a whole and has since become the term for a male person. "Woman" evolved from the word for "female person".

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/jimnice
jimnicePlus
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Thank you, it just proves has silly the man/woman controversy is. Maybe it's not widespread, but my former female minister made me aware of it. She refused to schedule any hymns that in any wany referred to men.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sphinx1824
Sphinx1824
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Oh, many people believe it to be true. It's a pretty common misconception. I've heard of some even sillier ones. Some people want to find sexism everywhere. :(

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NoctuaCuriosa

As Sphinx1824 mentioned, the word "woman" was not formed from the word "man". Rather, in older English, "man" was a neutral term, and there were two similar but separate words for each sex -- "werman" for a man, "wifman" for a woman. Over time, the prefix for a man was dropped, whereas the prefix for a woman was not, which is why the two appear the way they do today.

Incidentally, some fun facts: The word "wifman" is the root of the word "wife", and the word "werman" is the root of the word "werewolf".

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ponola

So, basically. A pre-medieval/mediaval form of English did what people today wish Esperanto would do. Have "homo = human" and "homicxo = werman" and "homino = wifman". Or something similar. How humorous. x3

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
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Still if the language identifies feminine as "-in" then it should still be "matrino" as an alternate term for mother.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kbulygin
kbulygin
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No, because -in- is a modifier (in this case of *matro).

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN
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Yet, neither "matro" nor "matrino" exist. "patrino" is the female parent which works even better than "virino" for female person. There are no feminine terms that don't have -in- or have you seen any?

Added in answer to below: Do you have an Esperanto dictionary which contains "natashaj", as I have yet to see that one? Oh, and then what are Russian boys called?

And yes, "matro" would exist "the male version of the feminine". Actually, no word is "masculine" or "feminine" until we make them so. So, it depends what you want "matro" to be, but following Esperanto "patro" or "matro" would be male and "patrino" or "matrino" would be female. Just which each person would prefer would be interesting. Again, this is all just theoretically possible and not actually used.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kbulygin
kbulygin
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I agree with your first two sentences. As for the question: it depends on how you define "feminine" terms. I don't know Esperanto well enough to come up with strong examples (like "actress" in English), but I think that in certain contexts words like "natashaj" (to designate Russian girls) can exist.

My point was that suffixes are always added to something. If matrino existed, then matro would also exist (at least as an archaism). But that would be nonsense. Hence, while matro is theoretically possible, matrino is not.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/iattilagy

I am actually surprised that esperanto has sxi/li/gxi. I am Hungarian and we have one word for these 'ő', or Turkish has 'o'. I never understood the need for these.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Sukram1947

Good remark! In fact, Zamenhof decided to keep the he/she/it (li/ŝi/ĝi) for a very simple reason: it makes all sentences using pronouns easier to understand! No need to look farther. And no need to add anything, except, maybe, that Z. was right :-)

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ninahabla

One of the reasons people have argued for it is for better translation of other languages, especially religious texts (some people even want to add an explicit feminine plural, isxi for this reason). If gxi had remained a viable gender neutral option, then you could use it when translating a language with only one pronoun (or when the original language used a gender neutral pronoun), and he or she when specified

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Eddygp
Eddygp
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Cf. catalan "padrí" "padrina" (godfather, godmother)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/truelefty
truelefty
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Actually the opposite of patro would be "malpatro"; "patrino" is just the feminine form of "patro".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

Yeah, You would think that the Esperanto word for "mother" would be "matro," and not "patrino," which basically means "female father."

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/johnclover

"Virino" doesn't mean "female man" and "knabino" doesn't mean "female boy". In the same sense, "Patrino" literally means "mother". Esperanto tries to keep the number of root words to a minimum. But it is sexist in a way that male is the default. There have been calls to change that.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

The root word, patr, is derived from the Latin word for "father." The affix "ino" is a diminutive affix, correct? If so, then patrino either means "little father;" or, more liberally, "she-father." Even if it's "little father," it's still a tad cruddy to have designated "mother" with a diminutive noun when it could just as easily have been "matro." If you're a fan of it then that's fine. I'm just pointing out what the Latin tells me. It's something that struck me as amusing in a "that's soooo 19th century" sort of way.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

No, "in" is a feminine affix and "et" is the diminutive affix, si it's not as bad as you made it out to be, but it still needs tweaking.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

If it's a feminine affix then it is like what I said in the first place: female-father, or she-father, or fe-father.

I mean, clearly you and I are valuing different parts of the word patrino, so I understand that we might not come to an agreement. That said, to me, matro makes far more sense as a counterpart to patro than an affixed derivation of patro.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

Once again replying.

I think I see what you mean now. The beauty of the "-iĉ" solution is that it would make it so that "patrino" would break down to "female-parent" rather than "female-father".

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Scott-Derek

You are confusing what the word diminutive means linguistically. That would mean the -id- is the diminutive. The -in- is a gender marker similar to the -e in French.

It isn't saying little father anymore than knabino is little boy. -ino is just the way to indicate gender in the language.

There are many languages (such as Chinese) that don't use gender, however Esperanto was created to use it.

I think it would be very confusing to use matro because the -in- suffix indicates femininity, so you would be saying mother is a male noun and basically the ONLY male noun that identifies specifically a female entity.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/farpung

Like MailmanSpy, I support the iĉ movement "where patro would mean one parent (gender undefined), patriĉo would mean father, and patrino would mean mother" and ŝli is a nongender term for he or she (some Esperanto books use this convention). Reason, its not just about father and mother, if you add in different female (or male) roots for family members, professions (think actor actress, etc.), and most of all animals (bull/cow, etc.) you end up adding hundreds of words to the language. All of these situations are handled with the "in" suffix in Esperanto, but it needs the "iĉ" suffix to balance it. (BTW: The fact that "in" is diminutive in some languages is irrelevant to Esperanto.) To get rid of residual maleness and femaleness in the root before the "iĉ" or "in" would mean inventing a whole new set of roots for family relations, etc. Too much, I think!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zerozeroone
zerozeroone
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Just as an aside, it would be nice if the course accepted -iĉ- in answers.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kholden83

Having recently read the wikipedia article on Ido, I noticed that it actually fixes some of these problems. However, there's only a couple of hundred Idoists, and over a million Esperantists, and there's also kinda random-seeming effing with the word endings. "Koko" was coined with similar problems -- it originally meant rooster, not chicken, and came from English cock and French coq. But the modern community have decided to treat it and other animal words as neuter*, it's just that you can't ignore the genderedness when talking about one's father.

*which leaves one having to say "virkoko" when one means rooster specifically, which if you translate back into English literally comes out as man-chicken, which I find hilarious.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

Replying here to your last comment.

You just have to combine the meanings just like most other words in Esperanto. You wouldn't translate "komencanto" as "one who is beginning". You would boil down the words to a more precise meaning, just like you have to do for words with the "in" suffix. I believe in the "-iĉ" suffix so that people will be fine and so that no exceptions, such as your preposition to add matro, would be created.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

I have no trouble understanding that the word patrino means-- though perhaps more precicely, connotes -- "mother." I take issue with how the accepted meaning is derived. It's like... I have no trouble understanding that a diamond is beautiful because it refracts all colors of light in a way unlike other precious stones, but I would take issue if it were a blood-diamond.* See what I mean? I think the guy who created the language missed something rather obvious when he glosses over "matro."

  • Of course I don't think the issue here is as bad as a blood diamond. Please don't infer that lol.
3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/worldtraveler96

I agree with you. However the purpose of the language is for simplified communication. The language was not designed to be beautiful. While matro is inherently a natural choice for the word mother, I only need to know the word for father to know the word for mother. Maybe a solution could be to create the word matro for mother and matrino for father, as an equally acceptable alternative. I'm a guy and I would be perfectly okay with fathers being matrino. And although ino is patterned as feminine in esperanto, it would in this case simply be implied as the opposite of the word. We could not do this by adding mal to give it the opposite meaning, because it would imply a negative meaning- maybe even to go as far as to question the parent's gender or sexuality, as if it were a bad thing.... Maybe as more people learn the language reforms could be made. Esperanto isn't perfect, but it is the simplest verbal language I know of.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Scott-Derek

You couldn't use matrino for father because that would create ambiguity in the language,, which it was created specifically to avoid. matro being mother would mean mother is male word, matrino being father would mean father is a female word.

Derivation is how many words are created. Languages are different and that is what creates the beauty. MAtro isn't used to mean mother because that isn't the word for mother. Just because someone feels it should be doesn't mean it has to be/should be/ or is. I'm sure Zamenhof thought about this issue, but for sake of simplicity and clarity (the point of creating the language) he stuck with patr as a parent entity with -o being male, -ino being female and ge- being the mixture as is the pattern of the rest of the language

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

Again replying to your last comment.

So, you are mostly saying that the ends don't justify the means?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

Not really; that point, as an argument in itself, is, at most, tangential to the point I've been trying to make. The only reason I made the analogy is because it appears that the focus of your argument, as well as that of the other gentleman's, is on the notion that I don't understand what the word patrino is supposed to mean (i.e. mother). What I've been doing, in soothe, is deconstructing the word itself and finding its anatomy to be, at the very least, amusing; and at the very most, a little irksome and misnomer-y (if I may be so bold as to turn that word into an adjective); especially since the more practical solution, matro, was obvious from the outset.

EDIT:

Allow me to make another analogy to accompany my previous one: A diamond is a precious stone, right? I'm the chick saying it is derived from carbon, but the people I'm talking to are telling me, "No... it's literally a diamond." And I'm saying, "Yes it is a diamond, but that's not my point." This is the hurdle we're currently at.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/StephieRice
StephieRice
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Perhaps if you have no knowledge of the language or linguistics.

Btw "partino" basically means mother and literally means mother. It in no way means "female father".

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Orbaleno
Orbaleno
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Dankegon!

1 month ago

https://www.duolingo.com/knifey

I'm looking forward to seeing what a lesbian couple who have adopted a child are designated as. But right now I'm still on "bongustan kukon" :)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/johnclover

I got a sentence that said something along the lines of "he has no father but two mothers" so it's in there!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DiegoJaviUnlam
DiegoJaviUnlam
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Jes! Jes! Jes! Exactly! And this is the way to teach Esperanto and its values of freedom and equality! =D

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Cristi_Here
Cristi_Here
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For me this is more than OK ! Why would I disagree with this?

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DiegoJaviUnlam
DiegoJaviUnlam
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Perhaps, Matro (for mother) and Matrino (for father) and never Matro and Patro at the same time, but with this you would need to change all the nouns with feminine and masculine genres. If those genres exist then you need to respect the Esperanto form.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bilburn

The idea of having Matro for mother and Matrino for father is the same problem but in reverse order. To have the base word assumed to be "female" and then the modified or "affixed" word male is "sexist" in the same way that some claim the current system is.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DiegoJaviUnlam
DiegoJaviUnlam
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I also understand that people think Romance languages are sexist, I can see the comments about the default masculine but it's not the case for Esperanto. I know a large list of institutions and organizations that we can say they are sexist, and it's wrong. Sexism cannot exist more in the planet! But Esperanto has born against the limits and all the Esperantists defend the equality and freedom. I will always defend Esperanto! Because it's free from borders and prejudices. I hope we can learn Esperanto but more we can learn to respect all the humanity to thank his creation and all the propagandists in the world!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DiegoJaviUnlam
DiegoJaviUnlam
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Yes, I know already is the same problem, but I say the system of Esperanto is not sexist and it cannot work in a different way, never I said to change the system. If I read Esperanto from my point of view of Spanish, then I can see the articles are so close to feminine articles in Spanish but this is not sexism. So, the writing system is aiming for the equality always. People that is disliking the system do not have solid arguments to say that is a sexist language.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NoctuaCuriosa

I think the root issue is not the specific words "patro" and "patrino". The issue is that male word forms are the general default, while all female word forms are derived from the male forms using an affix. Though not quite the same thing, linguistically speaking, I would compare the impact to something like using "scientist" and "woman scientist". It demonstrates a preferential defaulting to male. How much that default matters is something we could argue over all day long, but the fact that it exists is simply that: a fact.

I'm not saying I like this as a default, because I don't, but I do understand that it was done for the sake of simplifying the language, and it is a product of its time (late 1800s). Personally, I think the simplicity of Esperanto is one of its most appealing and defining features, so I would not be in favor of fixing this issue by adding a bunch of completely novel root words to the language.

That said, I believe I could support a fix that works with the current framework of Esperanto and maintains its overall simplicity -- perhaps, for example, through the addition of an equivalent male affix. As a side effect, such a change could serve to increase clarity and decrease ambiguity, which is generally regarded as a positive outcome.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

Thank you! It's been said several times, as if the pandering is supposed to be appeasing.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kanguruo
kanguruo
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Maybe right at the beginning but then you get very used to the word patrino. It is not a real problem.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Marialearn

Guys, stop saying this is heteronormative!!! It is talking about a specific example, ok?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mrins4
Mrins4
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Well, it's 2015... so that's not always the case. :)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Hotrootsoup

It didn't say it's always the case. In this one particular case, the parents are a man and a woman.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/M0taku
M0taku
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I find it interesting to read all the arguments for/against the addition of matro. Yet, no one brought up the subject of or grandparents, which both use a completely unrelated word "avo/avino". Are we also going to point out that there should be a separate or matronly word for this distinction as well? No? Then your defense seems a bit flimsy. Your whole basis for adding "matro" is because you want the cognate there. Of course, as multiple people have said, it would simply make no sense. It would have to be patro, and matrino and there is no in between. The idea isn't to make one gender lesser than the other, it is simply to identify male or female of the same type of word. Perhaps, it is simply better to think of the word as parent as it was intended. E.g. male parent, female parent. The words mother and father are simply arbitrary, if the word for male parent were foot, and female parent were hand, it would make no difference to their use in Esperanto.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KristianTh6

So many false cognates with Swedish ugh!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Renoized
Renoized
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I was marked wrong for saying "mother and father" not "father and mother", is this really a mistake or just because we're in beta?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

Sometimes when translating it's necessary to change the order of words in a sentence so that they make sense in English (like if you need to change the order of the subject and the direct object so that the sentence is semantically clear). However, if there is no reason to change the word order, then it's best not to do it.

I don't think Duolingo was wrong to mark your answer as incorrect.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

It's better to just follow the order of the sentence as closely as possible when translating, but still report it.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Renoized
Renoized
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Oh I understand, but there are multiple ways of saying the same thing. I just wanted to know if 'mother and father' somehow takes a different meaning to 'father and mother'.

The English collocation of 'father and mother' sounds wrong (at least for me), like 'fork and knife' instead of 'knife and fork'. If it's something like this I get it.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/CaveatEmptor

The difference between "mother and father" and "father and mother" is cosmetic only, when you're the one forming the sentence in the first place. Neither one of them is wrong. However, when you are translating something that someone else said, you have a responsibility to be as true to the original as you can, even if a certain collocation sounds awkward.

Perhaps the person who made up the sentence is exactly the sort of person who would put "father" before "mother." (This could actually prove to be an important nuance, so you wouldn't want to miss that as a trantranslator).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Renoized
Renoized
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This is good advice...!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ronaldo623

Is there a separate word for dad or daddy.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

Yes, it is "paĉjo", and similarly "panjo" for mom or mommy.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ronaldo623

OK. Dankon!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mr.weeks

i put farther not father

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/PrivateEyeball

Any advice on speaking the "tr" sound. I'm getting better at softening the r when I speak, except when there's a t in front. Then, it keeps having the same sound like in "train" or "tree"

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MattEnsign

If I have 2 moms should i say gepatrinoj?

10 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NicolasDaL698501

Good question. There are a lot of comments above, talking about gender reform in Esperanto. You can read a lot about it here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_reform_in_Esperanto

To answer your question : in my opinion, no, you can't do that. The standard meaning of ge- is "of both genders". In that case, adding the feminine -in- after seems to me incompatible. This also means that you can't just say "Mi havas du gepatrojn." because according to standard Esperanto the ge- means that both masculine and feminine genders are represented, which in your case is not true (I'm not saying that's fine. It's just how it is in standard Esperanto).

The masculine -iĉ- affix is a proposal to make the masculine and feminine words symmetrical and make the language gender-balanced (the roots are not supposed masculine by default). This means that "patro" could mean "parent" all the time, since we now have "patriĉo" to mean father, which would be symmetrical with "patrino" ("mother"). In that case, you could say "Mi havas du patrojn. Ili ambaŭ estas miaj patrinoj." (I have two parents. They are both my mothers.)

The problem with that, is that if you are not certain whether the person is using "reformed" Esperanto or not, you cannot be sure what they mean. Somebody could understand "I have two fathers. They are both my mothers." and be very confused.

That is why some iĉists keep using the prefix ge- as meaning "of whatever gender" (instead of "necessarily containing both genders") and use in singular words too. That is to say, using "gepatro" as meaning "parent" and "gepatroj" as meaning parents (not necessarily of 2 different genders). This is mainly to remove ambiguity with the standard Esperanto, since the addition of -iĉ- and making the root words all neutral would fix the problem.

That means that in your case, you could be saying "Mi havas du gepatrojn. Ili ambaŭ estas miaj patrinoj." (I have two parents. They are both my mothers.)

In any case, even with the reforms, ge- with -in- would be inacceptable.

Hope this helped. :-)

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KonradKond8

I agree

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/2_Learn_Spanish

Why don't you shout it louder so the people in the back can hear you better.

preach

3 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/gantsdacier

Hello, heteronormativity!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Cristi_Here
Cristi_Here
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You're one of the dongers gay people can't really handle ; )

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Perroelo1
Perroelo1
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Shut up

8 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mourad.hammiche

In "la du getpatroj" "du" is an adjective right? Why we do not say "la dua getpatroj" ?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/M0taku
M0taku
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It is an adjective, but it is the cardinal/counting format. Du = two. The "a" ending is reserved for ordinal numbers. Dua = second. On a side note, numbers in Esperanto seem to have no grammatical rule to their cardinal forms. Nul Unu Du Tri Kvar Kvin Ses Sep Ok Naux Dek

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sammykenne2

did anyone else hear this as Dougie?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tadeo_Servin
Tadeo_Servin
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Oh, right!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/darynholdsworth

Au: La du gepatroj estas la du patrinoj / la du patroj. Jes? Mi havas du belaj patrinoj.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hugglesaim
hugglesaim
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Oh my goodness gracious me!!!! Really!!! Oh wow this is amazing!!! I feel as if I have been enlightened by unicorns!! This should really be a sience research app!!!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BriarRose306816

Awed by correct guess!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/craaash80
craaash80
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Tautologies for dummies :p

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mel-the-raven

Rather than the gender of these pronouns, which is a fascinating conversation to participate in-

Why does this sentence state that the two parents are father and mother? Without context it seems biased and is somewhat uncomfortable, seeing that Esperanto is the people's language.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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ge- is the prefix to indicate both sexes together.

Interestingly, an unofficial usage can also be to ungender a noun: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ge-#Esperanto

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TorsonKipt1

This has been the universal pattern for mammals since they walked the earth, particularly humans. Deviance from this is empirically correlated to and psychologically causative of problems in every facet of life.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bo0s

SJWs be ruinin' Esperanto. I can't wait for this period of history to die and be looked back on with derision

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/darynholdsworth

That's the spirit, Seth. Esperanto is all about separating people and excluding the inconvenient. SMH

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KingOdiny

They assume GENDER!!!!!!!!!!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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Maybe there is a more calm way to launch such a discussion? Assuming that the aim is for constructive discussion.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Scrivisto

Wow, by the comments, apparently we can't escape the social language/thought police even when trying to learn an obscure hobbyist language. Leave the outrage culture at the door, please, and let us be at peace.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/tuxayo
tuxayo
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we can't escape the social language/thought police

Leave the outrage culture at the door, please, and let us be at peace.

In that case, peace for some is war for others and vice versa. :(

I agree that at lot of opinions are not phrased in a constructive way but that not a reason to reject the whole topic.

It's better to achieve peace by healthy and measured discussion than to avoid a subject of disagreement.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zerozeroone
zerozeroone
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I'm not saying your wrong, but...

You're saying this about Esperanto Speakers? I mean, really?

Esperanto is practically the language of crazy people...final victories and taking over as the world's international language, talk of "battles against linguistic injustice", petty arguments about "passive participles" and crying about how if people would only learn Esperanto the world would be filled with rainbows, butterflies, and unicorn farts.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Scrivisto

Perhaps it's a community I ought to be very careful around, then. I expected it primarily to consist of people who just share their love of language. That's all I personally want to do... But thanks for the heads up.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/zoktoor
zoktoor
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What about three-biological-parents kids? Esperanto needs to embrace science :D

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/MailmanSpy

It's the sentence, not Esperanto and I don't think three parents is possible.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Majklo_Blic
Majklo_Blic
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Not naturally, no; but medically, yes. There are surrogate mothers (who agree to carry another woman's fertilized egg to term), genetic engineering techniques such as mitochondrial DNA substitution, etc.

There's also the social aspect of adoptive parents, step-parents, the biological father/sperm donor of a lesbian couple's child (and vice versa). In short, there are a lot of ways to have more than two legal parents per child.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Cristi_Here
Cristi_Here
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Well, thanks for the explanation, but this is more about languages and less about biologic(disgusting for me xD) topics :)

2 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/AriHimber

I'm not a fan of the way this sentence is used... Very heteronormative.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/hammo
hammo
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How hetero-normative.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/unPlatypus

Do kio? :D

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/americanu197
americanu197
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pretty far from PC esperanto.... relics of by-gone ages

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bilburn

I fail to see how simply describing a family consisting of one father and one mother is a "relic of a bygone age". The sentence does not say "A family consists of a father and a mother", but rather uses the definite article "La" to refer to a "defined" family, not family in general.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/americanu197
americanu197
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i dont think you understand what i said... im protecting women here... the language was invented in a time where womens rights werent all that important... so yeah whatever mother is just another version of father sure

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dazissimo
dazissimoPlus
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Very heterosexist.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/avocadohummus

I think you mean heteronormative. In any case, there is a sentence mentioning a boy having two mothers in the course.

3 years ago