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  5. "Katidoj iĝas katoj."

"Katidoj iĝas katoj."

Translation:Kittens become cats.

May 30, 2015

55 Comments

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https://www.duolingo.com/profile/munderlohsean

why not use "fariĝi" in this case?

May 30, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Fariĝi implies that the kittens have a choice, & put forth effort to become cats. Iĝas implies that it's something which just happens.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

Could you provide a reference for this? I suspect the answer is far more mundane. My speculation is that the course authors were looking for sentences to teach the word "iĝi" and came up with this one. Personally, I would have said "fariĝi" here.

Edit: No, you certainly don't have to remember what you said 11 months ago, but 26 upvotes, I would hope that we could assure people that the content of what you said is actually true (or not).

Since you don't have a reference, here's what I have come up with. Jordan (Being Colloqual in Esperanto) says on this topic:

iĝi is not used as much as the longer compound fariĝi = “to become.” Logic will be on your side if you use iĝi, but you will be speaking more colloquial Esperanto if you use fariĝi.

The simpler answer would have been to tell munderlohsean that Fariĝi is just as good as iĝi here - and maybe even better.

The course still contains mistakes (much fewer than 11 months ago for sure) but I'm not really "second guessing" anybody here. They've out and told me that they'e done stuff like that. "Here's a word - what sentence can we make for it?"

http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/eo/colloq/colloq120.html#sec12-4-10


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

You ask me to remember what I was thinking almost a year ago? I believe that I was working on the premise of the mnemonic Make a pig become saus. Something becomes something else, such as kittens becoming cats, or seeds becoming flowers. But fari means to "do, make, perform an action" so I may have confused the "make" meaning of fari with the "make" meaning of igi.

However, I will still argue that fariĝi implies at least some level of conscious choice. The use of the simple iĝi doesn't. And, it's clear, understandable and lacking in confusion, as someone once said in another of these threads: "Klara estas ĝusta."

I'm not going to second guess the course authors, here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oceanotti

These examples are from Reta Vortaro:

Subite fariĝis nokto

Li fariĝis malsana

They do not seem voluntary to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

There is no question that Fred is mistaken here. His reply to munderlohsean above needs to be downvoted, and my rebuttal (which starts out "could you provide a reference for this") needs to be upvoted. At the very least, people reading this thread should consider the various comments and decide whom to believe.

Note that Fred declined to provide a reference.

Fred is making very good progress in Esperanto, but it's clear from his other comments that he's still learning. I have been teaching Esperanto for 18 years and have been using it daily even longer.

In addition to the reference I provided above and the examples you gave from Reta Vortaro, PMEG addresses this same question. Nowhere does it say that fariĝi implies voluntary action. In fact, I recently spent a week at NASK in Bertilo's class (Bertilo is the author of PMEG) and this question came up. Bertilo said once more that iĝi and fariĝi are "100%" synonymous. So if you don't want to believe me, and if you don't want to believe Jordan, maybe you can believe Bertilo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

I have never claimed to be a final arbiter on anything. I will, and have, accepted that I was mistaken, mia kulpo.

However, this is almost beginning to feel as a series of personal attacks against me. I have conceded to authority, now can we please drop this and focus on other, preferably important, issues.

I have also, in my defense, to note that there was no one, or scarcely anybody, who was taking the time (or able) to answer the questions of komencantoj when I responded to what seemed like a reasonable question. I answered as best I could, I was wrong. Now Duo has several skilled and talented linguists roaming these fora. I do not any longer feel the need to respond to questions asked by freŝbakitaj Esperantistoj. I also wish to avoid unnecessary conflict and dissension.

Ĉu tiu ĉi fariĝos finita?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

I know, and you I appreciate, mostly. (However "vote down" does have some unnecessarily painful connotations.) I also spent part of this last weekend sitting on a panel trying to defend Esperanto against some very loud, and knowledgeable, Klingons. I'm still a little gun shy. I was the only guy on the panel who was not a linguist by profession.

I was also the only person who could translate some of the very challenging audience chosen sentences. (No word on how well I did on some of them, spontaneous translations of Sci-Fi fandom can be difficult.) But, as I said, I'm still feeling a bit tender.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

For sure it's not meant as a personal attack. I'm sorry you feel that way. Actually, looking over your comments on this thread, I do not see where you ever said (till now) that you were mistaken a year ago. This only came up again because people still read this thread and one of them considered and tried to make sense of the explanation which you now concede was mistaken - and posted some counter examples.

I would like to underscore that everything I said about you personally has been positive.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Oceanotti

I am not sure whether you are thinking that I doubted your view on the subject. I simply chose to append some evidence that I found. I am just a komencanto, much more inexperienced than most people here and definitively than any of you two, so please excuse me if I do not enter your debate. As for your request for up or down voting any comment, I think that everyone is responsible for whatever they choose to believe. My personal position is to try to double-check the facts presented, and before giving credit to anybody's opinons I prefer to review their former comments and make an educated judgement about their quality. Yours seem alright, and I would not worry for people not being able to discern the wheat from the chaff.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

Sorry for the confusion. It was clear that your examples are counter to Frank's claim. My recent comment was a reaction to the fact that you (Oceanotti) even needed to take the time to post them. It's really not a debate. It's not even a question. There are lots of fine points of contention in advanced Esperanto, but the difference between igxi and farigxi is not one of them.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

"Fariĝi" is perfectly fine here - and arguably the better choice.

http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/eo/colloq/colloq120.html#sec12-4-10


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Okay, sed mi ankoraŭ pli ŝatas iĝi por tia ĉi uzado, malgraŭ tiu kiu Dr-o Jordan diras esti familiara.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tomaszym

Hm. I think fariĝi would show more effort done on the kittens side. But in ĝeneral that's a nuance (I'm not even sure I'm right) and usually iĝi or fariĝi might be used, no one pays attention to such details


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LytjeDk

How do I know if it is the cats that are becoming kittens or the kittens that are becoming cats? Or said straight out, - why are there no accusative n here???


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

Short answer - sometimes word order does matter. (Joffysloffy gave a good answer, but it's nested way down.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

iĝi means "to become," as opposed to igi which means "to make" (vastly simplified but adequately understandable, I hope.) Iĝi does not take the accusative, but igi does. (Why? I don't really know. I grew up speaking English so I never had to understand transitivity.)

So, to answer your first question, katidoj (kittens) iĝas (become) katoj (cats). If the concepts were reversed it would make no sense, since we know that nothing has ever been known to become younger than it has been previously (except for one Bob Dylan song, but it's pretty old now too.)

Unless you are purposefully writing surrealistic articles or stories in Esperanto, be assured that the most logical interpretation is probably the correct one.

Hope this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LytjeDk

Very well, but in these modern time if a person wants to change gender - how do you know which way it is? virino iĝas viro. (Remember word-order doesn't matter). It really doesn't make sense to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

In that case I would probably (because I have) say Virino viriĝas. (or Viro iniĝas, depending) (someone else may choose to correct that, please do.)

I don't normally send people to other online web-sources, since I feel that most of us are smart enough to find them on our own, but http://esperantodictionary.org/ has a bit of, I can't call it "discussion," but assistance in dealing with that sort of issue. The person running that site is, herself, trans. (And a very intelligent, and knowledgeable person from all accounts.)

I do hope that this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LytjeDk

Sorry but it was just an example. My point is, normally we need the assucative indication, - because how else would I know if the boy reads the book (viro legas libron) or the book is reading the boy (viron legas libro). Of course this is a stupid example - everyone knows that a book doesn't read boys! But in general it's good, because then we can see who is doing something to another thing. I love you doesn't need to be reciprocal and both ways are possible, - so here it does matter (Mi amas vin <> min amas vi).

But the same thing is true for become. Very often it does make sense. The boy become an adult, the lady become a dancer, the wood become a house (probably you will need more than wood, - but still).

But sometimes it's not so clear. It does make sense to say to car become garbage, but it also could make sense to say this garbage will become a car.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Verbs like these are called copulae (or copulas). This is not a complete answer to your question, but when using these, it is generally clear what the subject is and what the complement is, otherwise another construction would be used (so your question isn't very relevant in that sense). Also, there are plenty of things in Esperanto where word order does matter (e.g., ankaŭ, and so on) and maybe this is another example (not sure though).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Well, I hope that someone can help you, because I'm about to go over my head into material I don't really understand here.

However, "La aŭto disfalis al rubon" would probably be a more fitting way of saying that a car becomes garbage. I'll leave it here for now. Thanks for putting up with me.


[deactivated user]

    Is it totally forbidden to say, for example "Katidoj iĝas katojn" (with katojn taking the accusative -n)?

    It seems strange to generally use a permissive word order and use the accusative to indicate the subject of a verb, but then to have a specific class of verbs where word order is fixed.

    In this particular example (and in many others I've come across), it seems that using the accusative would make the sentence clearer (since "kittens become cats" and "cats become kittens" don't mean the same thing at all), so it seems that either one must stick to subject-verb-object order all the time, use some other word order most of the time and confusingly switch to SVO whenever a copula crops up, or deliberately avoid using copulas ("Katidoj katiĝas?)

    Basically, as far as I'm concerned, the copula can just go and copulas itself.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexandreA897826

    why not "katojn" in this case?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

    The -n is only used when something is doing something to something else. Like "estas", "iĝas" doesn't use -n because the kittens aren't doing anything to the cats. They're simply transforming.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KlausSanto

    Bonvolu forigi tiun frazon.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

    Bonvolu forigi tiun duoblan imperativon!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aquaticsklo

    Tiu cxi frazo devus esti la unua frazo el cxi tiu "skill".

    Soorrrryyy in advance for errors in that.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Just one serious correction, and it's one you may not have learned, yet: Lertaĵo = skill


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jorge.R.Nogueras

    Hum... if "lerta" means "skilled" and "lerte" means "skillfully," why doesn't "lerto" itself mean "skill"? (I don't even see an entry for "lerto" in the PIV!).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Good question. When I checked my Esperanto to English dictionary I found that lerta means something more like "Clever; able, adroit, deft, dexterous, good (at), handy, skillful, talented. Lert(ec)o = dexterity, knack, skill; but lertaĵo actually means "act of skill, a dodge."
    So I must apologize for my error above. A skill level, in a lesson like this, might still be a Lertaĵo but one could as easily call it Lertero or Lertnivelo

    Hmm, while I'm here and have the book:
    Lertego = "consummate skill"
    Lertigi = train
    Lertiĝi = gain skill
    Lertulo = clever/skillful person, adept
    Paflertulo = marksman
    Mallerta = awkward, clumsy, maladroit, unskillful
    Movlerta = agile

    I gave you a lingot for making me do research I should have done earlier.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jorge.R.Nogueras

    Oooh, my first lingot given to me by someone! :-) Thank you! (And thank you for the list of related terms).

    So, in your dictionary, "lerto" and "lerteco" are essentially synonyms? (As you can see here, vortaro.net has no entry for "lerto" at all: http://vortaro.net/#lerto).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Essentially. The listings I can find anywhere seem to make little or no differentiation.

    Enjoy the Lingot.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jorge.R.Nogueras

    Hum, ok, thanks: I'll use "lerto" and "lerteco" indistinctly, then.

    What's funny is I didn't even think I needed to look for "lerto" in the dictionary: Esperanto has taught me to "know in my gut" what a word must mean based on other words (e.g. if "lerta" means "skilled," then surely "lerto" means "skill.") I almost flipped when I didn't find "lerto" in the PIV!

    Ĉiuokaze, dankon por redoni ordon al la menso de juna esperantisto. :-D


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davgwynne

    Ankaŭ katoj igas katidojn.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Mi konsentas kun Joffysloffy.

    Se vi provas diri, ke katidoj venas el plenkreskajn katojn, la plej kutima, kaj komprena, radiko estas nask-. Esperanto malofte uzas eŭfemismojn aŭ ĉirkaŭparolojn kiel uzas la angla.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

    Dankon :).

    el plenkreskaj katoj (sen akuzativo). Kaj mi dirus kompreniga ;).


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Ne dankinde:

    Venas el _~n = comes out of _. (Indicative of direction)

    Ĉar mi vidis ambaŭ metodojn (kaj aliaj) por uzi kompren~ en tia frazo, mi ne disputos.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jorge.R.Nogueras

    FredCapp, post "el" oni neniam uzu la akuzativon.

    El PMEG (http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/rolmontriloj/n/direkto.html#i-9s1):

    "Kelkaj rolvortetoj per si mem montras direkton: al, ĝis, el kaj de. Tiuj rolvortetoj neniam montras pozicion. Post ili oni ne uzu N-finaĵon"


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Uf! Vi ĝustas! Mi pensis, ke oni uzas ĝin post en kaj sub kaj tiel plu, sed tute forgesis, ke oni neniam uzas ĝin post al kaj el.

    Mi dankas vin pro viaj serĉ-kapabloj, kaj por kapti maljunulon, kiu ŝanjas iomete konfuzetan.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jorge.R.Nogueras

    Ne dankinde! Ĉiuj rajtas erari kaj forgesi iam kaj tiam, ĉu ne? :-)


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Se mi estus perfektulo, mi ne bezonus Duo-n por ekzerci mian lingvo-uzadon. (ankaŭ mi estus junulo…) Dankon por via kompreno.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

    @FredCapp Oni ne ekzercas sian lingvouzadon, oni ekzercas sin en lingvouzado ;). La objekto de ekzerci estas tiu, kies lerteco pliboniĝas; ne la lerteco mem. (Ekzemple, oni povas ekzerci soldatojnsiajn orelojn.)


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Okay, I need to spend more time actually talking this language. Where do you live?


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

    The Netherlands :). I'll be going to SES this summer!


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

    Bone provinte, sed ne; igi neniam signifas krei, fari, produkti, ktp.
    Via frazo tamen povas esti ĝusta en la ĝusta kunteksto. Jen ekzemplo: “La katidoj forkuras! Kio estas la kaŭzo? La katoj igas la katidojn [forkuri].” ;). Rimarku, ke la signifo estas tute malsama.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davgwynne

    The dictionary that I was using gave the following definition.

    <pre> igi: cause, get, make </pre>

    So I was hoping for "Cats cause kittens" and wishing to use igi where the original sentence gave the use of iĝi. This was attempting to use it, I thought, in the same way as "A cat causes kittens to exist.". A failed attempt at humour.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

    Aha, yea, I did see that! It was a good try though!

    But bilingual dictionaries can be treacherous for this reason ;). I recommend that you also use a monolingual dictionary to make sure you got the right Esperanto word: la Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davgwynne

    Dankon.

    Mi provos uzi la Plenan Ilustritan Votaron. Ĉu la akuzativo estas ĝusta?

    Mi estas malrapida lernulo, do trovis la Plenan Ilustritan Votaron malfacila.

    Again I'm sure my sentence structure is problematic.

    I'm a slow learner, so find PIV daunting (but the practice will help). Thanks for swapping to English for me.


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

    Nedankinde :).
    Jes, la akuzativo en tiu frazo estas tute ĝuste uzita.
    Volonte farite, kaj sukceson :)!

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