Could you provide a reference for this? I suspect the answer is far more mundane. My speculation is that the course authors were looking for sentences to teach the word "iĝi" and came up with this one. Personally, I would have said "fariĝi" here.
Edit: No, you certainly don't have to remember what you said 11 months ago, but 26 upvotes, I would hope that we could assure people that the content of what you said is actually true (or not).
Since you don't have a reference, here's what I have come up with. Jordan (Being Colloqual in Esperanto) says on this topic:
iĝi is not used as much as the longer compound fariĝi = “to become.” Logic will be on your side if you use iĝi, but you will be speaking more colloquial Esperanto if you use fariĝi.
The simpler answer would have been to tell munderlohsean that Fariĝi is just as good as iĝi here - and maybe even better.
The course still contains mistakes (much fewer than 11 months ago for sure) but I'm not really "second guessing" anybody here. They've out and told me that they'e done stuff like that. "Here's a word - what sentence can we make for it?"
You ask me to remember what I was thinking almost a year ago? I believe that I was working on the premise of the mnemonic Make a pig become sausiĝ. Something becomes something else, such as kittens becoming cats, or seeds becoming flowers. But fari means to "do, make, perform an action" so I may have confused the "make" meaning of fari with the "make" meaning of igi.
However, I will still argue that fariĝi implies at least some level of conscious choice. The use of the simple iĝi doesn't. And, it's clear, understandable and lacking in confusion, as someone once said in another of these threads: "Klara estas ĝusta."
I'm not going to second guess the course authors, here.
There is no question that Fred is mistaken here. His reply to munderlohsean above needs to be downvoted, and my rebuttal (which starts out "could you provide a reference for this") needs to be upvoted. At the very least, people reading this thread should consider the various comments and decide whom to believe.
Note that Fred declined to provide a reference.
Fred is making very good progress in Esperanto, but it's clear from his other comments that he's still learning. I have been teaching Esperanto for 18 years and have been using it daily even longer.
In addition to the reference I provided above and the examples you gave from Reta Vortaro, PMEG addresses this same question. Nowhere does it say that fariĝi implies voluntary action. In fact, I recently spent a week at NASK in Bertilo's class (Bertilo is the author of PMEG) and this question came up. Bertilo said once more that iĝi and fariĝi are "100%" synonymous. So if you don't want to believe me, and if you don't want to believe Jordan, maybe you can believe Bertilo.
I have never claimed to be a final arbiter on anything. I will, and have, accepted that I was mistaken, mia kulpo.
However, this is almost beginning to feel as a series of personal attacks against me. I have conceded to authority, now can we please drop this and focus on other, preferably important, issues.
I have also, in my defense, to note that there was no one, or scarcely anybody, who was taking the time (or able) to answer the questions of komencantoj when I responded to what seemed like a reasonable question. I answered as best I could, I was wrong. Now Duo has several skilled and talented linguists roaming these fora. I do not any longer feel the need to respond to questions asked by freŝbakitaj Esperantistoj. I also wish to avoid unnecessary conflict and dissension.
Ĉu tiu ĉi fariĝos finita?
I know, and you I appreciate, mostly. (However "vote down" does have some unnecessarily painful connotations.) I also spent part of this last weekend sitting on a panel trying to defend Esperanto against some very loud, and knowledgeable, Klingons. I'm still a little gun shy. I was the only guy on the panel who was not a linguist by profession.
I was also the only person who could translate some of the very challenging audience chosen sentences. (No word on how well I did on some of them, spontaneous translations of Sci-Fi fandom can be difficult.) But, as I said, I'm still feeling a bit tender.
For sure it's not meant as a personal attack. I'm sorry you feel that way. Actually, looking over your comments on this thread, I do not see where you ever said (till now) that you were mistaken a year ago. This only came up again because people still read this thread and one of them considered and tried to make sense of the explanation which you now concede was mistaken - and posted some counter examples.
I would like to underscore that everything I said about you personally has been positive.
I am not sure whether you are thinking that I doubted your view on the subject. I simply chose to append some evidence that I found. I am just a komencanto, much more inexperienced than most people here and definitively than any of you two, so please excuse me if I do not enter your debate. As for your request for up or down voting any comment, I think that everyone is responsible for whatever they choose to believe. My personal position is to try to double-check the facts presented, and before giving credit to anybody's opinons I prefer to review their former comments and make an educated judgement about their quality. Yours seem alright, and I would not worry for people not being able to discern the wheat from the chaff.
Sorry for the confusion. It was clear that your examples are counter to Frank's claim. My recent comment was a reaction to the fact that you (Oceanotti) even needed to take the time to post them. It's really not a debate. It's not even a question. There are lots of fine points of contention in advanced Esperanto, but the difference between igxi and farigxi is not one of them.
"Fariĝi" is perfectly fine here - and arguably the better choice.
iĝi means "to become," as opposed to igi which means "to make" (vastly simplified but adequately understandable, I hope.) Iĝi does not take the accusative, but igi does. (Why? I don't really know. I grew up speaking English so I never had to understand transitivity.)
So, to answer your first question, katidoj (kittens) iĝas (become) katoj (cats). If the concepts were reversed it would make no sense, since we know that nothing has ever been known to become younger than it has been previously (except for one Bob Dylan song, but it's pretty old now too.)
Unless you are purposefully writing surrealistic articles or stories in Esperanto, be assured that the most logical interpretation is probably the correct one.
Hope this helps.
In that case I would probably (because I have) say Virino viriĝas. (or Viro iniĝas, depending) (someone else may choose to correct that, please do.)
I don't normally send people to other online web-sources, since I feel that most of us are smart enough to find them on our own, but http://esperantodictionary.org/ has a bit of, I can't call it "discussion," but assistance in dealing with that sort of issue. The person running that site is, herself, trans. (And a very intelligent, and knowledgeable person from all accounts.)
I do hope that this helps.
Sorry but it was just an example. My point is, normally we need the assucative indication, - because how else would I know if the boy reads the book (viro legas libron) or the book is reading the boy (viron legas libro). Of course this is a stupid example - everyone knows that a book doesn't read boys! But in general it's good, because then we can see who is doing something to another thing. I love you doesn't need to be reciprocal and both ways are possible, - so here it does matter (Mi amas vin <> min amas vi).
But the same thing is true for become. Very often it does make sense. The boy become an adult, the lady become a dancer, the wood become a house (probably you will need more than wood, - but still).
But sometimes it's not so clear. It does make sense to say to car become garbage, but it also could make sense to say this garbage will become a car.
Verbs like these are called copulae (or copulas). This is not a complete answer to your question, but when using these, it is generally clear what the subject is and what the complement is, otherwise another construction would be used (so your question isn't very relevant in that sense). Also, there are plenty of things in Esperanto where word order does matter (e.g., ankaŭ, eĉ and so on) and maybe this is another example (not sure though).
Well, I hope that someone can help you, because I'm about to go over my head into material I don't really understand here.
However, "La aŭto disfalis al rubon" would probably be a more fitting way of saying that a car becomes garbage. I'll leave it here for now. Thanks for putting up with me.
Is it totally forbidden to say, for example "Katidoj iĝas katojn" (with katojn taking the accusative -n)?
It seems strange to generally use a permissive word order and use the accusative to indicate the subject of a verb, but then to have a specific class of verbs where word order is fixed.
In this particular example (and in many others I've come across), it seems that using the accusative would make the sentence clearer (since "kittens become cats" and "cats become kittens" don't mean the same thing at all), so it seems that either one must stick to subject-verb-object order all the time, use some other word order most of the time and confusingly switch to SVO whenever a copula crops up, or deliberately avoid using copulas ("Katidoj katiĝas?)
Basically, as far as I'm concerned, the copula can just go and copulas itself.
Good question. When I checked my Esperanto to English dictionary I found that lerta means something more like "Clever; able, adroit, deft, dexterous, good (at), handy, skillful, talented. Lert(ec)o = dexterity, knack, skill; but lertaĵo actually means "act of skill, a dodge."
So I must apologize for my error above. A skill level, in a lesson like this, might still be a Lertaĵo but one could as easily call it Lertero or Lertnivelo
Hmm, while I'm here and have the book:
Lertego = "consummate skill"
Lertigi = train
Lertiĝi = gain skill
Lertulo = clever/skillful person, adept
Paflertulo = marksman
Mallerta = awkward, clumsy, maladroit, unskillful
Movlerta = agile
I gave you a lingot for making me do research I should have done earlier.
Hum, ok, thanks: I'll use "lerto" and "lerteco" indistinctly, then.
What's funny is I didn't even think I needed to look for "lerto" in the dictionary: Esperanto has taught me to "know in my gut" what a word must mean based on other words (e.g. if "lerta" means "skilled," then surely "lerto" means "skill.") I almost flipped when I didn't find "lerto" in the PIV!
Ĉiuokaze, dankon por redoni ordon al la menso de juna esperantisto. :-D
FredCapp, post "el" oni neniam uzu la akuzativon.
"Kelkaj rolvortetoj per si mem montras direkton: al, ĝis, el kaj de. Tiuj rolvortetoj neniam montras pozicion. Post ili oni ne uzu N-finaĵon"
The dictionary that I was using gave the following definition.<pre>
igi: cause, get, make</pre>
So I was hoping for "Cats cause kittens" and wishing to use igi where the original sentence gave the use of iĝi. This was attempting to use it, I thought, in the same way as "A cat causes kittens to exist.". A failed attempt at humour.
Mi provos uzi la Plenan Ilustritan Votaron. Ĉu la akuzativo estas ĝusta?
Mi estas malrapida lernulo, do trovis la Plenan Ilustritan Votaron malfacila.
Again I'm sure my sentence structure is problematic.
I'm a slow learner, so find PIV daunting (but the practice will help). Thanks for swapping to English for me.