"Tio estas, kion mi vidas."

Translation:That is what I see.

3 years ago

38 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/habstinat

Why can the comma be used in this sentence? In English, "That is, what I see" sounds awkward.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luis_Domingos
Luis_Domingos
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Commas are used in Esperanto to separate clauses (just like in German). I don't think it's mandatory, but it does to help separate the clauses better so it's just something extra you can use (it won't be counted wrong if you don't use them, though).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/voidIndigo
voidIndigo
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You helped me both in Esperanto and German! I never figured out how to use the comma in German. Thanks a lot.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/llpoh
llpoh
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Does this mean it's hard to over use commas in Esperanto? I often over use them in English. :-)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/pureintellect

same here! I am always using commas. Sometimes, but not always, I use them a little too much. Not that it is a bad thing, however.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/minombreespollo

Not if you are using spanish. As a native Spanish speaker I say it is generally acceptable to use them, even instead of points and it's encouraged in some style-courses I've taken.

As for me, I prefer to use points. Not only it saves me the trouble of switching styles with the languages, It also helps me be clearer as a writer. It's a real hassel to read spanish for that same reason. After using English for many years and german to some extend, I find that using points is so much understandable to read.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/DerekRusse9

In american English we call points periods.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Carl-Aude

Yes, we say "period" in American English, or "full stop" in British English. Never "points".

9 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Basilious

Spanish, Italian, French, and other romance languages use "point" for a full stop or period.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Adam.johnson810

Why is it kion and not kio?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

Because it is the direct object in the subordinate clause (the part: “what I see”). ‘What’ is the thing being seen, not the thing doing the seeing, so it's the object, not the subject, whence it gets the accusative case.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/aammd
aammd
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but why isn't it "Tion estas", then?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/voidIndigo
voidIndigo
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Because the "That" is the subject of the main clause (the thing you are seeing), so "Tio".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/aammd
aammd
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thanks!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/googlybees
googlybees
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Would "tio estas ke mi vidas" work?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

No, ‘ke’ is a conjunction, while ‘kio’ is a pronoun. Here is an example: “I think that that is true.” = “Mi pensas, ke tio estas vera.”.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/nottakenyet

this is a succinct and effective example to explain the difference -- thank you!

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

You're welcome :).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/sp2learn
sp2learn
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Your example, "I think that that is true" is not best English. Although not infrequently spoken this way, only one "that" is needed.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

I know only one ‘that’ is needed, but it is grammatically correct to leave it in. I just used that example to show that Esperanto has two different words for something English has one; omitting one ‘that’ would completely undermine my point, so I really don't get what you're trying to say.
Moreover, I often find it clearer to leave ‘that’ in (see above, before “Esperanto”; it clearly indicates a new clause in a long sentence; it just makes it easier to read, by omitting it, one could interpret the sentence as such that I am showing to Esperanto something (obviously silly in this case, but there are examples¹⁾ where this may cause some confusion)).

1) I showed mother and father like that. This can mean that I showed mother and father something in a particular way: ‘like that’; or it could mean that I showed that it is so, that mother and father like ‘that’. Adding ‘that’ before “mother and father” would disambiguate this sentence.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Basilious

Actually, you need two, not just one 'that', in the example you came up with. There is no need to apologize. In fact, any teacher should/would take marks away from you if you don't include two 'thats' in that sentence.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

Firstly, no, the second ‘that’ is not necessary; the sentence “I think that is true.” is perfectly grammatical in English source 1, source 2.
Secondly, I did not apologize and I wasn't about to either.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Basilious

Well, contrary to what you think, we need two, and omission is not allowed.

I moved into Canada back in 2006, and although there are many nuances when it comes to English grammar, because of the country's history in regard to 'Britain' and the Unites States, they still teach that doubling is the norm in Academia.

I am aware that many of the rules that we were taught have changed with time, for better or worse, but in this instance, it is mandatory to include two 'that's if you are writing a paper.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

Do you have a source for your claim?

When you say “mandatory (…) if you are writing a paper”, then you are talking about style not grammar. Just like it is mandatory to write going to instead of gonna in a paper, while gonna is still grammatically correct. My original example was not in a paper, or any other formal setting for that matter, whence your ‘correction’ still does not apply.
Also, did you even look at the sources I gave? It clearly says in the first line “This is common in an informal style.” and close to the top “it is quite natural to omit that, especially in informal speech”.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Basilious

Well, where else do you expect to see proper grammar if not on official forums and the like?

Duolingo is a podium for learning proper grammar and syntax, that is why it is important to adhere to the rules when giving examples.

Informal speech is just irrelevant when you consider the context. I thought that was obvious.

Personally, I consult many sources, such as the Blue Book of Grammar, Grammar Girl, and grammar usage in the Cambridge dictionary, among other sources, to keep myself current.

Anyway, I will leave things at that, that my reply does not read too long.

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

Yes, just leave things at that, since you hardly bother to even read my comments anyway. I am using proper grammar, it is informal style; that is still grammatically correct.

I will just leave some more evidence supporting my case; mainly from sources that you prefer (but clearly did not consult).

Here is grammar girl saying that both leaving in and omitting that is grammatical after the words in question (in particular in the case of think): «Several listeners have asked when they should omit the subordinating conjunction "that" in their writing. For example, should you write “Squiggly said that it was Aardvark’s birthday,” or just “Squiggly said it was Aardvark’s birthday”? For this sentence, both ways are perfectly grammatical, but if you’re following a principle of omitting needless words, you’ll want to leave out the "that."

Watch out, though. Although "that" is optional in this example, you can’t assume it’s optional wherever you see it. Sometimes it’s mandatory. And even when it’s optional, it’s sometimes still a good idea to keep it.» Source.

From the Cambridge Dictionary: “We often leave out that after these verbs, especially in informal speaking. This is sometimes called zero-that.”

From the New Oxford Dictionary: “The word that can be omitted in standard English where it introduces a subordinate clause, as in she said (that) she was satisfied.”

5 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/stephbutler19

So kio an kion are used with what thing, and kiom is used for how many, right?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

Precisely!

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/craaash80
craaash80
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WYSIWYG

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/TerryMadeley

That comma confused me as well. I was thinking, instead of "that is, what I see", could it be read as "what I see is that"? In which case, would the -n suffix go on "tion" instead?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Tebis11
Tebis11
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MONTRI AL MI, KION VI HAVAS

MI ŜATAS, KION VI HAVAS

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/narkop___
narkop___
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Air temperature in Japanese. :o

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Estulo
Estulo
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does anybody have any fancy ways of remembering the many different questions

kiom, kion, cu, etc.

I will give a lingot

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ronaldo623
ronaldo623
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I always translate vidas as live instead of see. Thanks a lot Spanish!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alogician
Alogician
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So this sentence sees "what" as an object, so "kio" becomes "kion". What if the clauses swapped around? ("What I see, is that.") Is "kio" still the object or "tio" now an object? ("Kion mi vidas, estas tio" VS "Kio mi vidas, estas tion".)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

The object does not depend on the position in the sentence, but rather on the meaning it has in the sentence/clause. Here kion is the direct object of vidas; it indicates that it is not the thing doing the seeing, but rather the thing that is being seen. If you swap the clauses around, the essential meaning of the sentence remains the same, i.e., kion is still the object of vidas.

The sentence Kio mi vidas, estas tion is grammatically unsound (both because Kio mi vidas is wrong, but also because estas tion is not correct either, as esti is a copula, i.e., a ‘connecting verb’.)

Hope this helps!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Alogician
Alogician
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Thank you for the clarification. So "kion" is the object of the clause it's in, whereas the "tio" has no such verb-object relationship affecting its grammar.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Joffysloffy

Precisely! Only estas affects tio, so tio is not the object of a transitive verb.

1 year ago
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