Tips & Notes corrections
Hey everyone, as you can probably tell, we especially pride ourselves on the quality of our Tips & Notes in the Esperanto course. We've spent many hours writing the best descriptions we could.
Lately I've been getting quite a lot of private messages with Tips & Notes corrections, so I thought I would start a thread here, so we can deal with them more efficiently. If you see a problem with any Tips & Notes whether it's a typo, something not explained or not clear, etc., just leave a message here and let us know. Thanks for your help!
138 Comments
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For the Tips and Notes at the beginning of Basics 1, I have a suggestion from Don Harlow. Currently, the text says, "The emphasis in every word is always on the next-to-last syllable." The problem with this explanation, is that the meaning of a syllable is undefined, for a beginner. The concept of "syllable" varies with the language, and Esperanto isn't easy or transparent. Someone who hasn't yet studied the language can make a strong case for an analysis, which counts three syllables in words like "knabo", "scii", or "ĉiuj". A word like "balai" seems like it scarcely has more than two syllables.
Don's suggestion, which I have found very effective in my teaching, is to drop the word "syllable", and use the word "vowel". The five Esperanto vowels are clearly defined and easy to remember. English speakers have no trouble with the idea that there are exactly five of them. The word stress always goes on the next to last vowel. With that explanation, all the problem words like those in the previous paragraph are unambiguous. It also helps when discussing diphthongs.
The word "syllable" appears five times in this Tip, and swapping them out for the word "vowel", plus a little rewording to make the sentences read right, would yield a simpler and clearer explanation. In the current Tip, I'm not sure a beginner can get anything from the phrases, "as in viro" and "as in knabino", since they don't yet know how those words are pronounced. Here's how a revised Tip might look:
The emphasis in every multi-vowel word is always on the next-to-last vowel. All words with two vowels have the emphasis on the first vowel, for example, on the 'a' in "knabo". All words with three vowels have the emphasis on the middle vowel, like the 'i' in "knabino". And so on. Even for really long words, try to emphasize only the next to last vowel, such as the final 'i' in "dompurigistino" (=cleaning woman).
Well done on the Tips & Notes, they are incredibly thorough and detailed. They do an excellent job of explaining the language.
There is at least one current learner of the Duolingo Esperanto course who seems to have a huge bee in his/her bonnet about that user's several-times expressed desire to be able to use ci as a second-person singular form. I think the notion arises from an unwillingness to consider that some features essential to one’s (non-English) native language are quite unnecessary in standard Esperanto, and I thought it might be a good idea to incorporate a Tips & Notes section somewhere, maybe in a unit devoted to pronouns. Here's a suggested text, my translation of a bit from PMEG. I've put in four-dot ellipses where, for conciseness, I've omitted a part of Bertilo's explanation. You could probably use standard periods here, since Duolingo is probably more concerned with pedagogy than struggling for academic rigour in quotations.
Kind regards, Esperakantisto ————
As Bertilo Wennergren writes in the authoritative and comprehensive Plena Manlibro de Esperanta Gramatiko, “ci and cia exist only theoretically, and are almost never used in practice. One could imagine ci as a purely singular vi, as an intimately familiar (singular) vi or even as an insulting (singular) vi, but it is in fact completely impossible to say what sort of nuance it shows, because it scarcely is used.... In the Fundamenta Gramatiko (“the 16 rules”) neither ci nor cia appears. Also in the Unua Libro these words are not to be found.
“Some imagine that people formerly used ci in Esperanto and that this use later vanished. The truth is that, in practice, ci was never truly used.... On various occasions one may find ci in translations where the original had a ci-type pronoun. Most often this is inappropriate as a translation equivalent, because ci can scarcely convey the meaning of an often-used normal word when it is itself a very rare word whose nuanced meaning is unclear.... A great many Esperanto speakers don't understand the pronoun ci. Therefore, those who attempt to use ci in conversation encounter many difficulties. In normal Esperanto one simply uses vi always, whether speaking to one person or to more than one, whether speaking to an intimately known person or to a stranger, or whether speaking to a friend or to an enemy. It works very well. As needed, one can provide greater precision by saying vi sinjoro (‘you, Sir‘), vi amiko (‘you, friend’), vi kara (‘you, dear’), vi ĉiuj (‘you all’), vi amikoj (‘you friends’), vi karaj (‘you dear ones’), vi ambaŭ (‘you both’), etc.”
(http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/pronomoj/dua.html#i-lrm)
I just wanted to add a note about “On various occasions one may find ci in translations where the original had a ci-type pronoun”, as I actually did see ci in a translation of Tolien’s The Hobbit… and English does not have such a feature! However, it was used in the trolls’s speech… and trolls are supposed not to speak well, so I guess it’s OK. I just wanted to give this example (which I consider well translated) reading through your comment: I mostly agree with you about this point ☺
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Hm. Tre interese. Kial mi ĉiam pensis ke ci estis rezervata por uzi en plej formalaj cirkonstancoj? Ekz. Mi opiniis ke se mi renkontus la reĝinon de Britio, mi uzus (kaj uzu) ci kun ŝi.
Kial mi havas tiun opinion, se vere ci estas tiom malbone difinita, kaj preskaŭ (tute?) neoficiala?
Three small typos:
- In the Infinitive skill, the last section says (about halfway down) "It AN also be used ..."
- The Travel skill is missing a ) at the end of the first section.
- The Education skill, in the last section, says "When TAKING about relatives ..."
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This is not for Esperanto, but I do not know how to pass it up to Duolingo in general.
I like the timed practice element, but it prevents one from reporting a problem or looking at discussions. Reporting a problem or looking at a discussion should pause the timer on the timed practice.
I would like to see some explanation of some of the constructions found in the "expressions" section. I am thinking in particular of the cases where -e + de is used instead of a participle such as "fare de". There is also "pere de" which is taking an adverbial preposition and making it a grammatical adverb with a preposition attached! I do not really understand these beyond simply accepting them as idioms. I'm sure the explanations are somewhat arcane and might be confusing to a beginner, but lots of people don't read the notes anyway. Surely we could add a note at the bottom or something.
Just a suggestion.
Agreed. There is a lot of discussion in that section about this topic. It would be easier to address them in a Tips & Notes section that to try to reply to each user individually.
The Prepositions section needs an explanation of ĉe. I understand it's similar to the French 'chez', but if English is your first and only language, it's a hard concept to wrap your head around.
Although similar, there are additional uses of ĉe that are not seen in chez in French (I’m thinking about Mi eksidis ĉe la tablo.). One can argue that this is an irregularity of French, but I’m not sure that everyone would think similarly. All that to say that it would be a good idea to add some explanations here if you have time to ☺
The Notes should explain the h spelling (h for the "hat", and nothing for the accent over the u). I know that it is not practicable for automatic conversion to the accented letters but such a conversion is not necessary. I just mean that there should be a clarifyong note because in the web the h way of spelling is widely used.
You can use the x-convention instead. Typing cx, gx, hx, jx, sx or ux produces ĉ, ĝ, ĥ, ŝ, and ŭ, respectively. Alternatively, there are keyboard layouts for Mac, Unix/Linux or PC keyboards which generate the circumflex- and breve- combination letters. As another alternative, there are buttons provided on the dialogue windows which, when pressed, produce the relevant characters in your Esperanto replies.
I think there is a misunderstanding: I do not mean the way of producing the accented letters. I mean just that in the training course, there should be a note that explains the h spelling system. This would be helpful. I heard about an Esperanto speaker who had never been taught in this, and he was astonished when his friend sent him a message in the h system. So Duolingo should provide learners with such a useful information, too.
"A million and beyond", from the Numbers skill
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[Hopefully PIV (vortaro.net) is a good enough source]; from http://vortaro.net/#ilion:
-ilion-. Suf. almetebla post la numeraloj de du ĝis dek, kiu indikas potencon de 10 kun eksponento, kiu estas oblo de 6: duiliono (Sin. biliono; 10^12), triiliono (Sin. triliono; 10^18), kvariliono (Sin. kvadriliono; 10^24), [...] -
When naming powers of 10, languages use either a "short" scale, or a "long" scale; they are identical until 10^6, the million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales#Comparison
English usually follows the "short scale", according to which 10^9 is called a billion, 10^12 is called a trillion, and 10^15 is a quadrillion.
It is rightly said under the "Million and beyond" table to possibly avoid using biliono, because it's ambiguous. Unfortunately, the same can be said for the english words billion, trillion, and quadrillion, because according to the long scale they would be 10^12, 10^18, and 10^24 respectively.
So, the problem I found is that the table in the notes is not consistent to the short scale nor to the long scale.
If we follow the short scale, "duiliono" is trillion, "triiliono" is quintillion.
If we follow the long scale, "duiliono" is billion, "triiliono" is trillion.
For now the table has, for "duiliono", trillion, for "triliono", quadrillion
I don't have a solution to offer, but surely this is too much of a hassle for most komencantoj (I'm one as well but love to dwelve into specific topics :D). Thanks for reading, I hope I didn't waste your time :) I thank amuzulo and the rest of the team for the continuous effort they put into the great Tips, and the course in general. Ĝis! ;)
I don't know if this would keep things simple enough in the notes, but a solution is to keep the short scale and introduce -iliard- together with -ilion-
http://vortaro.net/#iliard
That way it would be: "duiliono" - trillion, "duiliardo" - quadrillion, "triliono" - quintillion, "triiliardo" - sextillion, and so on...which follows the succession of "miliono" and "miliardo", after all.
You have a small typo: it should be ‘triiliono’, as ‘triliono’ is ambiguous.
Also, in the Tips & Notes it now says that triiliono means ‘quadrillion’ instead of ‘quintillion’ (short scale). See here: https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortoj_por_grandegaj_nombroj
Hi, thanks for the reply. You're right tri-iliono is probably better, but triliono seems fine, I guess it's shortened (used by Zamenhof too): http://vortaro.net/#triliono ; http://vortaro.net/#triiliono
The table though is still the same as I saw it, and it's not a short scale:
>For now the table has, for "duiliono", trillion, for "triliono", quadrillion.
The english quadrillion is 10^15 in the short scale, which is not a triiliono.
In esperanto, a duiliono is 10^12, a duiliardo is 10^15, a triiliono is 10^18.
Mil duilionoj ne estas triiliono, sed duiliardo. Mil duiliardoj estas triiliono.
Please let me know if you're not convinced :)
Right, I'm agreeing with you though. Except that the Tips & Notes at Numbers says that ‘triiliono’ is ‘quadrillion’, the latter, in that table, uses the short scale, as it says ‘miliardo’ is ‘billion’ and ‘duiliono’ is ‘trillion’. So ‘triiliono’ should be changed to ‘duiliardo’ in the table.
Exactly. In the end, it's not too difficult; half of the "big numbers" are -ilion-, half are -iliard-, and they alternate each other.
@elechim indeed. I was merely pointing out an error in the Tips & Notes. In my native language we use the long scale, so I'm used to it :).
I found a little mistake in the "Numbers" lesson, at "Writing out numbers".
You said there: "La du-mil-okcent-kvara tago" means "The two thousand eighty-fourth day".
But doesn't it mean "The two thousand eight hundred fourth day"?
And "the 2084th day would be "la du-mil-okdek-kvara tago", ĉu ne?
In the last table of the 'Food Tips and notes': https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Food
You will see that it states 'Esperanto question' where should simply state 'Esperanto word' since that words are no questions, but probably answers.
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I'm not sure if you can add a Tip or Note to the basic Home page. Maybe you can get Duolingo to improve their site in this regard, to make it more clear to the beginning user how to progress. Here's the problem: After finishing the first Basics lesson, I go to the Home page, with the hope of doing lesson 2. Basics 1, which I finished, shows in color, but Basics 2, and all other lessons are grey. Clicking on them does nothing. It appears to me that there is no way to get the second lesson.
Going to Help, I search for this problem. I find several that several other people have had the same problem, and have written different questions asking how they can get to the second lesson. The answers that I read didn't answer the question in a useful way.
The problem, as I suspect you have figured out, is that I haven't really finished Basics 1. I, and dozens of other users, are confused between Basics 1, which is partly done, and Lesson 1, which is completely done. For a brand new user, this distinction may not be clear, and this presents an almost insurmountable road block to further progress.
I think the Home page should make it much more clear what the next step is. I suggest adding some mechanism, some sort of "Click Here To Continue" banner or indicator on the Home page. Perhaps even more important, if a user clicks in the wrong place, on Basics 2 or any other lesson on the page, they should instantly get some extra help, hint, or arrow and text, to tell the user what to do next.
The Tips Notes for Meat Dishes in the Food section are very clear and exceedingly helpful. But, it took me a while to realize that -aĵ is used for other foods as well.
Could you add language that explaines that this suffix is used to indicate the food made from the root product?
A very small point in Countries. (So far, I'm really enjoying this course. Keep up the good work!)
Ethnic-based A country defined by its ethnicity takes its ethnicity as the root form (like italo and franco) and its country name is formed by adding io in front of the ending -o. For example: The Italian from Italy = La italo el Italio The Frenchman from France = La franco el Francio
shouldn't it say replacing the ending -o with -io ?
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I agree with jchaugen. I would advise to avoid the perspective that it's replacing -o with -io. Coming from other languages with such conjugation patterns, I understand the point of view. However, the agglutinative beauty lies in seeing each element as a separate entity which combines with others to form meaning. So instead of seeing a difference between "manĝ + o" and "manĝ + aĵo", see it as "manĝ + aĵ + o".
That is not to say that it's not also true that -o gets replaced by -io (or -ujo), but it's a less precise and, with no offence intended, somewhat weaker perspective as it limits the understanding to complex chunks rather than a chain of simple elements.
Feelings
I guess it would be useful to explain in tips & notes that in Esperanto "to feel" is reflexive: you have to use "senti" with min/vin/sin/nin when you are speaking about how you feel. Eg. "Mi sentis min tre laca" (not "Mi sentis tre laca")
Please add a note comparing and contrasting the usage of multa and multe. There seems to be some confusion on this, judging by the sentence discussions. For instance, in "kunikloj havas multajn idojn.", many want to know why it's not multe. I have some ideas, but not sure if they're right.
While dictionaries show "multe da vino" or even "multe dankon", this seems slightly illogical to me. "Multe" would ordinarily seem to be an adverb, while "multa" must be an adjective. I'm not advocating for changing Esperanto, but I am puzzled by such uses of "multe." It would seem more clear to me if the distinction were more clearcut. Like this, perhaps: "Kuniklojn tre multe ŝatas karotojn kaj laktukojn. La griza kuniklo manĝis multajn el ili." (Rabbits very much like carrots and lettuces. The grey rabbit ate many of them.)
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In the Countries and Nationalities skill, there is a bad header: ".#### About the Americas"
There's a new web design paradigm in use today that sacrifices usability for a questionable idea of beauty.
In the old days, links were blue and buttons looked like buttons, so you always knew where you could click.
In today's newer model, arbitrary colors are used for links, buttons don't always look like buttons, and many clickable items look like ordinary text. So you don't know where you can click until you click on it, or at least hover over it long enough to notice any mouse cursor changes.
This is not the fault of the Esperanto contributors, though. I'm not exactly sure whom to blame. It just sort of happened, all over the Internet. I don't think I can blame the Duolingo designers, necessarily -- presumably they get their inspiration from all the other websites that do the same thing.
Always randomly move the mouse cursor around on every web page -- you will often find clickable elements you didn't know were clickable. Happy hovering and clicking!
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Hi. The issue of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Another movement on the web however has been to become more semantic. This should in theory allow people to supply their own stylesheets, for accessibility purposes for example. With a custom stylesheet you can make an !important rule that overrides the color of links on all webpages.
The problem, and this is a problem, is that the tips & notes "link" is not a link. It's just a div with styles on it and a javascript event to display the popover. This is not at all semantic and cannot even be overridden for accessibility. That's a poor design. However, no need to be mean, DuoLingo is indeed a fantastic project. We can helpfully suggest that this be improved.
PS. Mi malŝategas paroli pri Esperanto en la angla. Mi ĉiam sentiĝas kiel mi krokodilas.
Your analysis, that tips & notes is not a real link, may explain why, when I try to select text on that tips & notes pop-up, hoping to copy it and paste it elsewhere, the little pop-up suddenly vanishes, dashing my hopes to the ground.
The pedant in me wants to soften "Adverbs always end in -e" in https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Adverbs to something like "Adverbs typically end in -e" or "A root plus -e is always an adverb" :) since plainly there's the (non-productive, finite) sets of words that are (at least sometimes called) adverbs that don't in -e (e.g. hieraŭ, baldaŭ, preskaŭ, tabelvortoj je -am) and basic words ending in -e that are not adverbs (ne, je)
(or maybe someone would stick up for ne being adverbial, but surely at least je is decisively a preposition, and anyhow, it's surely not a normal adverb in the sense of being root n- plus ending -e)
Not exactly a “Tips Notes”, but just for clarity, instead of launching another topic:
· In the tree, it spells “Past/Futur” with a missing “e”!
· Does anyone else think there could be another checkpoint, let’s say e.g. after Dates/Times,Occupation,Imperative, and the last one after Feelings,Places,People? The first ones seem close enough but there seems to be so much lessons in the end of the tree!
"Past/Futur" is spelled without a missing "e" because of a 10 character short title limit unfortunately. Checkpoints are automatically placed by the system, so we can't influence that either. Thanks for your feedback!
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May I suggest "Past/Fut." as an alternative? It's not very pretty either, but it looks slightly better to me personally :)
In the tips and notes here https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Adjectives-1 you wrote "A adjective"
It would be nice to have the difference between "ke" and "Kio" explained when it is first introduced, which, if I remember is a few lessons after "ke"
This course is fantastic! My 10 year old son is also learning!!
Hi again
I remembered now that I had 1 question appear which asked to translate "the woman kisses the man" and when I answered "la virino kisas la viron" is was wrong and gave the correct answer as "la viro kisas la virino"
The question was given when I tapped "practice weak skills"
Hope you can find this!
Tips & Notes are in a very light grey text that is barely readable. Please use black on white like they use in real books.
Unfortunately, we have no control over this feature. Please contact Duolingo directly with your request.
Only if you agree with my request, would you please relay it to Duolingo? They will read it more carefully if it comes from a moderator.
If you don't agree with it...then there's no need to do anything.
Dankon por la bona kurso! En la lasta leciono vi diris "auto" anstataŭ "aŭto" ("Lasi la hundon en la auto estas kruele."). Rigardu: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Abstract-Objects-2.
The Tips and Notes are very helpful, but I find that I cannot locate them when I use Duolingo on my Kindle Fire, whereas they appear fine when I use my desktop. With my desktop, I can go to, say, Phrases, and the Tips & Notes appear below the lessons. When I do that on my Kindle, I can see the lessons but there are no Tips & Notes accessible via that page (or via anywhere else as far as I can see). Am I missing something very basic here?
They're not available on the app. Can you try reading them in your mobile browser?
Why is there a "Food 2" category but not a "Food 1" in the Esperanto course?
Please add Tips & Notes to the 'Expressions' lesson. Currently, there is Not a Tips & Notes section included there. And, thank you for having the Tips & Notes section available in all the other lessons! It is a great help for the learning process.
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Education—Participles + -o ending
There are five examples given:
1. Three are on the same line, two are on their own lines.
2. Use of italics is inconsistent. Two examples have the Esperanto italicized, two have the English italicized, and one has a hanging "*".
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That section looks much better.
However, there are two problems in LA CAN TAKE THE PLACE OF POSSESSIVE PRONOUNS, right below.
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At the end of the paragraph there are two hyphens ("--") where there should be an em-dash ("—").
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There are six examples: five use an equals sign ("=") as a separator between the Esperanto and English text, one does not.
- Done.
- Added new lines to make it more readable.
We strive for perfection, so thanks for your feedback!
do some subjects not have tips and notes? i could not find any under the feelings heading
The Feelings skill does have the following notes: Tiel...kiel Tiel...kiel is a way of expressing a comparison: Esperanto English Li estas tiel laca kiel mi. He is as tired as I (am). Ŝi estas tiel kontenta kiel ili. She is as content as they (are). Reflexive verb: senti Please note that senti [to feel] in Esperanto is reflexive. For example:
Mi sentas min feliĉa. = I feel happy. Kia vi sentas vin? = How do you feel?
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Reading your note, Ruth, it reminds me that the term "reflexive verb" is a mystery to most of my students. This adds to the confusion for English speakers, that "senti" is a transitive verb, and needs a direct object that they don't expect from English phrases. While students may forget in the moment, they generally have learned by this point that transitive verbs (usually) have a direct object in the sentence. Maybe adding another sentence or two to this note would be helpful. Something like:
"Senti" is a transitive verb, and a direct object almost always appears in the sentence, for example, "Kiel vi sentas vin?". Frequently, "senti" is used as a special kind of transitive verb, where the direct object refers back to the subject, such as vi/vin in the previous example, or mi/min in a sentence like "Mi sentas min feliĉa." When used this way, as it often is, we call "senti" a reflexive verb, which means that the object "reflects" the subject.
Thanks! You make a very good point. I will update the note with your suggestions.
In the tips & notes of Dates and Times, the last phrase has a minor typo. FInally instead of Finally x)
I went through the 'Prepositions' skill yesterday and feel like this part should have been introduced a little earlier:
"In general, nouns following a preposition are not considered direct objects so do not take the -n ending. One notable exception to this rule is the directional -n (see below!)."
This was something that was not clear to me after going through some of the previous lessons, which is why I kept on getting certain exercises wrong. I did find out what was going on with a little bit of googling, but considering that a few select prepositions are introduced prior to the 'Prepositions' skill, explaining this earlier would have been rather helpful to tell you the truth.
Maybe a short note in the 'Accusative' skill would suffice? :))
We chose not to include it in the Accusative skill, because that's already quite a big concept for most to understand. We'll try to think about how we can make the directional prepositions clearer.
Yeah, I had a feeling that was why. Anyway, thanks for being so passionate about this course. :)
(The following is purely opinion.)
I think the labeling of the -n following prepositions as "directional" actually muddies an understanding of the concept. North and south, left and right, up and down, have nothing to do with it. I personally find it easier to think of the -n following a preposition as simply signifying a change of location, with any particular direction being implied by the nature of the preposition (not by the -n).
Basically:
If there's an -n following a preposition, there's a change of location.
If there's no -n following a preposition, there's no change of location.
Since al is the one preposition that always describes a change of location, having an -n follow it would be redundant, so we don't use it with al.
Really, that's the long and the short of it. Anything else just confuses the subject (my opinion only, of course).
I also hate referring to "directional" -n as being part of the "accusative" because even though it often gets lumped in with the accusative, it really has a completely different function, quite distinct from denoting the direct object. In fact, since the above is actually easier to understand than the accusative case, you might want to teach the above separately from and before you teach the accusative (assuming you introduce the prepositions before the accusative - I'll be honest by saying that I have not checked if that's the case). It might lessen confusing one for the other down the road.
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I agree with you, RiotNrrd, that using the word "directional" in this case may not be the most effective explanation. I teach that this use of the -n shows a change in status or situation. This requires examples and further explanation, but my students have found it useful. I explain that moving from outside a room to inside a room is a change of status, while moving around inside a room doesn't have this kind of change. The same with "in" and "into", "under" and "under to".
Among other things, this terminology avoids confusion in the case of "al". Students understand that "mi iras al la lernejo" doesn't include a change of status. It also handles the metaphoric uses, such as being in danger, versus coming into danger.
When I learned Esperanto it took ages to understand that "al" has no accusative because I misunderstood the "direction => accusative concept.
We have 2 cases.
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1: General rule: Unlike in many other languages, after prepositions we have no "-n" . In some cases (we'll show later) you may substitute a preposition with accusative, but not use both. This general rule is valid also for prepositions like "al" and "de" who always have direction.
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2: prepositions of type "either place or direction" like "en", "el", .... => without/with "-n" ... Here both are correct, but have a different meaning. .... --- more text ---
You will have to split this somehow to the lessons. In the first you write the general rule , mentioning that special cases will come later. And later the place/direction thing mentioning that after "al" the known general rule is applied.
Now I reached (again) the "tips notes in https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Prepositions/1 . I like it very much! In the end:
------------------- clip ----------------
The directional -n
In addition to its use for the direct object, the -n ending is also used to show direction: location).
Ŝi saltas sur la tablo. = She jumps (up and down) on the table.
Ŝi saltas sur la tablon. = She jumps onto the table (from another
------------------- clip ----------------
bv. alduni du etaĵojn: --- "... when using prepositions like "en", sur" which may mean either place or direction, in order to distinguish we use ..." and
Keep in mind that direction not automatically means you put an "-n". When using prepositions like "al" and "de" who always have direction, the general rule applies: no "-n".
I hope you got my two ideas, I'm not able to write them shorter and better just now.
A very small mistake, it's just a comma missing
Unit: Dates and Time
Error:
kiel: in what way how
Correction:
kiel: in what way, how - (a comma after "way" is added)
It's just a veeeeeery small mistake
In the Questions lessons' Tips Notes, they go out of their way to point out that Tiu/Kiu takes the accusative ending, and then describes the difference between Tiu/Kiu and Tio/Kio, which lead me to assume that Tio/Kio did NOT take the accusative ending. A foolish assumption, since I'm sure I'd seen it already in one of the many previous lessons, but still it confused me and I was surprised when I saw Kion show up in the lessons.
Maybe I'm missing something, but the Food module says that we already learned several preposition such as sur, al, kun, etc. The only prepositions I learned at this point are De/Da. Is this a mistake in the Tips & Notes, or did I miss a section?
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Mi perdis koron ĉar mi diris "mi ĝin volas vidi" kiam la kurso malĝuste insistis ke mi devas diri "mi volas vidi ĝin". Tio estas terura laŭ mi, ĉar instruas al novesperantistoj ke la vortordo de nia lingvo estas fiksita en la ordo de la angla. Fi.
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Mi konsentas kun Gregnacu ke lia frazo estas ĝusta. Mi tamen komprenas ke la teamo traktas milojn da frazoj kaj variaĵoj, kaj certe bezonos tempon por ĝustigi ĉion. Mi ankaŭ havas fidon, ke novaj lernantoj povos lerni iom post iom pri la aspektoj, ebloj, kaj limoj rilate vortordon. En la komenco de io nova, ne helpas prezenti ĉiujn eblojn. Pli utilas prezenti unu bonan modelon, kiun la lernanto komprenu kaj ekuzu. Poste oni prezentu plian elekton, kaj iom post iom, aldonu variaĵojn.
- 1176
Mi ne scias kiel funkcias duolingo por la kursdizajnantoj. Do, eble estas tre malfacile enmeti ĉiun eblan varion de akceptebla vortordo. Tamen, mi trovas ke dum mi faras la kurson ofte ĝi provas korekti min kiam mi scias ke tio kion mi skribis estas gramatike ĝusta.
Mi ne certas ĉu mi konsentas ke estas pli bona presenti unu bonan modelon. Vortorda fleksebleco estas profunde grava parto de la lingvo. Mi ja komprenas tamen ke povus esti malfacile reprodukti la regulojn de Esperanto en komputila sistemo dizajnita por pluraj lingvoj. Eble pli da komentoj aŭ notoj dirantaj ke duolingo artefarite limigas la vortordon estus sufiĉa por kontentigi min. Mi preferus ke la kurso subtenu almenaŭ un du pli da tre kutimaj vortordoj. SVO kaj SOV laŭ mi ambaŭ estu akceptataj.
The description of "se" is in the tips & notes of Questions, but it seems that it is introduced in Verbs Present.
- 1856
In Basics 2, you have "Ĉu introduces a yes/no question." In Questions, you have "As covered in Basics 2, ĉu is used at the beginning of a sentence to form a question with specific answers, such as a yes/no question."
It seems like people pick up ĉu as being only for yes/no questions because...well, that's what they are first told. I would suggest changing the Basics 2 text to better match what is show in Questions.
See https://www.duolingo.com/comment/9341288 for an example of what I'm talking about.
Thanks for pointing this out. In an effort to make the Tips and Notes as basic as possible in the first few lessons, we went too far. I have rewritten the note in Basics 2 to include the two ways ĉu is used in questions. The use of ĉu as "whether" in statements is introduced later. I hope this helps. Please let me know if further clarification or different examples would be useful.
The Shopping Tips & Notes are blank except for one line:
-ilo (also in Affixes 1)
- 387
Laŭ la sekcio "Common Phrases", nomoj de viroj ĝenerale uzas la "-o"-finaĵon, kaj nomoj de inoj povas uzi la "-a"-finaĵon. Tamen, ĉu tio vere estas tendenco en Esperantujo? Mi estas uzinta ambaŭ finaĵojn por nomoj senrespekte al sekso, kiel mi lernis el aliaj informfontoj . Mi ne havas multan sperton kun la Esperanta kulturo, ĉar mi kutime estas tro timeta por renkonti aliulojn. Do mi ne certas pri nomaj tendencoj. Tial mi scivolas, ĉu la "-o"/"-a" genra divido efektive ekzistas?
Ĝi estas praktika elekto ĉar -in kun nomoj ne estas kutime tre bela, kaj -a por virinoj estas sufiĉe internacia ke por nomoj tio estas rekonebla. Neniel tamen estas oficiala regulo.
Jes, kutime viraj nomoj finiĝas per -o kaj virinaj nomoj per -a, sed tio estas nur tendenco, ne regulo.
- 140
Mi dirus ke inter viroj, malpli ol 50% ŝanĝas la nomon al nova formo en Esperanto. Multaj el tiuj elektas nomon, kiu finiĝas per 'o'. Inter virinoj, eble 30% ŝanĝas la nomon al nova formo en Esperanto. Iuj el ili elektas nomon, kiu finiĝas per 'a', sed iuj elektas nomon, kiu finiĝas per 'o'.
La aserto pri "kutimaj" nom-finaĵoj estas misgvida pli ofte ol prava.
- 387
Mi komprenas ke multaj personoj povus elekti nomon per tiu gvidnormo, eble eĉ la plejmulto, sed ne ĉiuj. Mi proponas etan ŝanĝon de la teksto por specifi ke ĝi ja estas tendenco anstataŭ regulo. Eble de "For a woman, Esperanto names can end in" al "Esperanto names for women generally end in" samforme kiel la frazo pri viraj nomoj. Almenaŭ aldonu frazon sube, kiu specifas la nereguleco.
Mi iomete zorgas ke novaj esperantistoj povus miskompreni la tekston kiel regulo. Por viraj nomoj, ĝi uzas "generally", sed por inaj, "can".
Dankon pro viaj respondoj. :) La kurso havas bonan kvaliton.
Daŭris sufiĉe longe ĝis mi pro iu komento konstatis ke la "Tips Notes" estas ĉiam ajn atingeblaj. Eble en la unua de ili skribu tion. Aŭ lasu strigon "meti la nazon" de novaj lernantoj al tio. Simile pri "Report a problem": unue mi ne kuraĝis kaj ne komprenis ke "Report" iras rekte al la teamo, sed rajtas esti malpli grava ol problemo, dum "discuss sentence" ne. Nun mi scias...
Jes, ili estas tre bonaj kaj ekzakte tiom ampleksaj kiom necesas (certe ie iom pliperfektigendaj).
On the TN about -U, at the end:
Ŝi postulas, ke siaj infanoj studu. She demands that her children study. Ĉu vere eblas uzi "siaj" en la subjekta grupo? Mi kredas ke tie nur "ŝiaj" taŭgas.
- 140
Vi pravas, balou67. La diversaj formoj de 'si' ne povas esti subjekto, aŭ parto de subjekto.
En https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Verbs-Past-Future/1 en tri lokoj, nome ĉe
La kato dormas. (The cat sleeps.) La kato dormos. (The cat will sleep.)
and
Neĝas. = It is snowing. Post kiam
bv. aldoni novan linion. Fajrovulpo, Win 7.
Kaj bv. priskribi la imperativon, speciale formojn kiel "vi faru", "Ĉu ni kisu". Aŭ eble metu ilin en aliajn/apartajn lecionojn.
En https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Numbers/2 antaŭ "po" kaj "nombro vs numero" devas esti po unu malplena linio.
Kaj bv. plene klarigi "po" en frazoj kiel "La renkontiĝo kostas po 18 Eŭrojn por nokto". Do du vortoj, kie en multaj lingvoj sufiĉas unu. Komparu PMEG.
En https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Dates-and-Time/3 du malgrandaĵoj:
antaŭ "SPELLING CONVENTIONS" mankas malplena linio. Mi metus ankaŭ po malplenan linion post "kiom", tiom", ĉiom", "neniam".
en la linio "kiel in what way how" mankas komo antaŭ "how"
Duo lists in https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Adjectives-1/3:
ia(j)(n) = some kind(s) of
nenia(n) = no kind of.
I would write there:
ia(j)(n) = some kind(s) of, any kind(s) of
nenia(j)(n) = not a kind of, no kind(s) of.
- 33
Mi ŝatus legi: "CORRELATIVES WITH -U / -u words …” anstataŭ "CORRELATIVES WITH -IU / -iu words …” en https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/People. Pri la korelativo-skemo, mia prefero estas {ki-, ti-, i-, ĉi-, neni-} {-u, -es, ...} ol {k-, t-, , ĉ-, nen-} {-iu, -ies, …}.
- 140
Mi konsentas. I agree. The alternative that huang.degil prefers is clearer and easier to remember. It is also more in harmony with the rest of Esperanto. The correlatives can't ever be completely parallel with the rest of the language, but it makes sense to say "Kia ends in the letter 'a', and the answer is usually an adjective, also ending in 'a'. Kio ends in 'o', and the answer is usually a noun, also ending in 'o'." All affixes in Esperanto have at least one consonant and one vowel (I wouldn't call -n an affix). To define the stems of the correlatives as {k, t, [empty set], ĉ, nen} makes them look even more anomalous than they otherwise are.
- 33
In https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Places, under "THE -N ENDING FOR DIRECTION”, it should read “… movement toward something. … it is not used after the prepositions ĝis or al , …" instead of "… movement toward or away from something. … it is not used after the prepositions ĝis, al or el, …”. Post prepozicio oni uzas akuzativon por montri la celon de almovo, neniam demovon. Ankaŭ en la sama paĝo, mi ŝatus legi: "CORRELATIVES WITH -E AND -EN” anstataŭ "CORRELATIVES WITH -IE AND -IEN”.
In https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Feelings/1 nepre aldonu ion pri la refleksiva uzo de "senti sin" k.a. - la lernantoj miras de kie tio subite venas. Des pli ĉar oni en la angla esprimas tion alimaniere, per simpla "feel", ne per "feel me".
In the Basics 1 unit, ŭ is mentioned. Then, in the Countries skill, ŭ is mentioned again.
- 1707
Tips and Notes are awesome thanks! One suggestion - the table of correlatives in sports, it would be great to have the meanings too ie
individual / thing / place / manner / time / quantity
along the top row and
question / th- / some / every / no
along the left column. I know we should know this at this point and the correspondences to English aren't exact, but it would be helpful to be reminded at this point.
Hello, I do not know why on this page ( https://www.duolingo.com/skill/eo/Colors ) there are words: "grize" instead of "greza" and "oranĝkolore" instead of "oranĝkolora". In these three lessons adverbs are not used, only adjectives.
+1. I agree with oles1a. Under the heading "Colors," there are three round-cornered boxes giving the vocabulary for Lessons 1, 2 and 3. In Lesson 2 it says "grize" instead of "griza," and in Lesson 3 it has "oranĝkolore" instead of "oranĝkolora". I suppose one could say: "Li farbas la ŝipon grize" or: "mi vidas la mondon rozkolore." But I have not seen such examples being given among the Duolingo sentences presented to us.
Mi rekomendas konsulti PMEG-on: http://h.bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/specialaj_priskriboj/perverba/objekto.html .
Just a small one, but in Travel, you've missed a closing parenthesis in the last bullet point under JU (MAL)PLI...DES (MAL)PLI.
"Ju malpli da vortoj, des pli bone. (The fewer words, the better."
Lesson "Travel":
"...Ju malpli da vortoj, des pli bone. (The fewer words, the better. "
A final ")" is missing ;)
"Affixes 2 Lesson 1 ek, ekdormu, indaj, fidindi, lernindos, amindu, eklaboru, ekiros, bedaŭrinda." Ŝajnaj eraroj: amindu > aminda; lernindos > lerninda
In the Date & Time Section, can you explain the use of ĉi- with a time period in adverbial form, e.g. ĉi-semajne and ĉi-monate? It seems to mean a single occurrence (this week, this month); it's different from the use of -e endings in the section implying a recurring event on a particular day/date, so I think it would be helpful to have an explanation :)
- 1176
Root words that have the -e ending applied are adverbs. Root words that have the -a ending applied are adjectives.
Adjectives only describe nouns. Adverbs are used to describe everything else.
La knabo estas rapida. La knabo kuras rapide.
Rapid-a is an adjective that describes the boy. Rapid-e is an adverb that describes how the boy runs.
Using an adverb is almost always a shortened way of saying something that could be said without an adverb by using a preposition instead.
La knabo kuras kun granda rapido.
When an adverb is used to describe a time it too can be understood with a preposition instead.
Mi manĝas matene. Mi manĝas en la mateno.
Mi ekzerciĝas semajne. Mi ekzerciĝas dum la semajno.
I eat in the morning, implies that morning after morning I eat again and again. I exercise during the week, implies that week after week, I exercise again and again.
Ĉi is use typically with the correlatives, tie, tiu, tiel and sometimes others to signify proximity.
Tie means there, ĉi tie/tie ĉi means here. Tiu means that, ĉi tiu/tiu ĉi means this. Tiel means like that, ĉi tiel/tiel ĉi means like this.
Ĉi can be combined, with a hyphen, with a time adverb to specify only the most proximate unit of that time.
Mi manĝas ĉi-matene. Mi manĝas en ĉi tiu mateno.
Mi ekzerciĝas ĉi-semajne. Mi ekzerciĝas dum ĉi tiu semajno.
I eat on this one morning. I exercise during this one week.
There's a typo in the Tips & Notes of Abstract Objects in the first example – “Lasi la hundon en la auto estas kruele.” – there is a breve missing: aŭto, not auto.
- 1176
Mi ja opinias ke tiu eraro estu ĝustigita, specife por ne konfuzi la komencantojn. Tamen, mi volis remarki ke la ĉapelo super la u estis permesita esti forlasita laŭ Zamenhof per la alternativa literumsistemo, la h-sistemo.
Anstataŭ ĉ -> ch, ĝ -> gh, ĥ -> hh, ĵ -> jh, ŝ -> sh, kaj anstataŭ ŭ oni povas forlasi la ĉapelon entute. Do, aparte sur komputiloj aŭ poŝtelefonoj kie povus esti malfacile tajpi tiun capelon, oni ofte forlasas ĝin.
Mi kredas, ke preterlasi la ĉapelon super la u povus esti konfuzante por komencantoj, ĉar ili tiam eble ne scias, kiam ĝi estas uzenda. Krome, la kurskreantoj nenie uzas aŭ eĉ mencias la h-sistemon. Cetere, ili uzas la normalajn literojn (ĝ, ŝ, ktp) ĉie sur tiu paĝo, kaj sur ĉiuj ‘Tips Notes’-paĝoj.
Mi kredas, ke oni nur uzu la h- aŭ x-sistemon, kiam ne eblas uzi la normalajn literojn. Notu bone, ne uzu la normalajn literojn kaj la h- aŭ x-sistemon en la sama teksto!
- 1176
Jes, plene konsentite. Kiel mia unua frazo diris, la eraro estu ĝustigita por ne konfuzi komencantojn.
Mi ne komprenis vian komenton, pardonon :-x Mi legis ĝin signifantan “Mi ĝustigu tiun eraron tiel”… mi legis tro rapide. Nu.
Aha, bone. Pardonu min! Ial mi kredis, ke ĝustigi signifis ‘pardoni la eraron’, sed tiu signifas ‘korekti’! Ups!
- 1176
Ha! Pardonu min. Nun mi komprenas kial vi ambaŭ respondis kiel vi respondis. :) Mi ja pensas ke en la kunteksto de la kurso ĝi (auto) estas eraro korektinda.
Ĝustigi plimalpli signifas korekti. "Pravigi" signifas pardoni la eraron aŭ deklari ke ĝi ne estas eraro. :)
Mi opinias ke montri aliajn skribsistemojn ja povas konfuzigi homojn. Ĉefe se aldonas ambiguon… La du sonoj de “u” kaj “ŭ” tute ne similas! Lernigi homojn Esperante skribi uzante unu skribmanieron estas io, diri ke tio estas tiel ke skribiĝas Esperanton estas tutalia!
Mi jam legis la vorton “fraulino” por signifi “flegistino” (verŝajne tiu tute ne plu uziĝas, sed mi legis ĝin en Tinĉjo kaj la ❤❤❤❤❤ insulo). Kaj nu, “fraŭlino” estas tute alia afero! Mi ne havas alian ekzemplon de la ambiguigoj kiujn tio kaŭzis, sed ĉiel ne estas la celo de tia kurso ŝanĝi la lingvon!
- 1176
Mi konsentas ke la aliaj skrib-sistemoj povas esti konfuzaj. Kaj ili ja povas enkonduki malgrandajn ambiguojn. Tamen, almenaŭ la h-sistemo estas oficiala, enkondukita de Zamenhof mem. La x-sistemo mi pensas estas neoficiala, sed ankoraŭ tre populara. Mi pensas ke almenaŭ ie en la kurso oni lernu pri la alternativaj skribsistemoj, ĉar en la reala mondo oni renkontos ilin!
Mi lernis per lernu!, kaj en la unuaj mesaĝoj kiujn mi interŝanĝis kun esperantistinon de mia urbo ŝi skribis per la x-sistemo... Nu, mi tute ne komprenis ŝin. Do, gravas lerni kiel oni uzas la lingvon.
Jes, vi certe pravas prie… sed kie meti ĝin en tia kurso? :-\
Mi nun lernas la portugalan kaj malkovras ke multege da homoj uzas vervive mallongigojn kiujn mi tute ne konas: estas iel simila problemo, ĉu ne? Sed ĉu estas bona ideo instrui tion? Mi ne scias…
Ĉiel, plibonus je la fino ol la komenco de la kurso, mi pensas.
