Is there any logic behind 'til og med' and 'av og til'? direct translation as 'to and with' or 'off and to' does not help....
Look at the hints. "til og med" should show "even" as a hint.
"av og til" = sometimes
Yes, I can see that. But I wonder if someone can explain to me how "to and with" came to mean "even"...
The hints show 'Up to and including', which is similar to 'to and with' and, at a stretch, is similar in meaning to 'even' ie 'Even you could win this' or "Most people, up to and including you, could win this'. Well, thats how I hope to remember it...
I'm not too sure about its origin, so it's probably very old, but I just think of it as a 'word'. Writing 'til og av' doesn't make any sense, and the three words are always together.
I think the better question is why the hell does the English phrase "up to and including" get turned into "even". "Av og til" can be thought of as roughly the same as "off and on" which gets turned into "sometimes".
Til og med Gjertrud! (You should look up "jeg heter Finn" by Ylvis on YouTube, it's a lyric from that song :) that's how I remember this!)
I already use pop muzak from Norway to help me learn. So I'll go listen to this song after my lesson. Thank you for this advice!
It covers the same meaning, yes, even if it's a bit too wordy to see much use in colloquial English.
Would "til og med du" be incorrect? In another exercise, we have "Til og med jeg kan danse!" Is there any rule behind it?
Yes, it would be correct here as we have no context telling us whether "you" is a subject or an object - or even singular or plural.
If you have more context, then you will have to choose the appropriate pronoun:
"Everyone can dance, even you." ("you" is the subject)
"Alle kan danse, til og med du."
"I want to dance with everyone, even you." ("you" is the object)
"Jeg vil danse med alle, til og med deg."
Feature request: allow text copy from android app. Thanks Linn for your very detailed answer.
Bare hyggelig, Jarl! Feature requests should probably be made elsewhere, but at least you'll now have a mail notification to lead you back to the post.
Since both 'selv om' and 'ja, til med deg' mean EVEN... Can they actually be used interchangeably or there are some differences in usage? Thx
They're used differently:
"Selv om de har samme oversettelse"
"Even if they have the same translation."
"Oversettelsene har til og med forskjellige betydninger på engelsk."
"The translations even have different meanings in English."
Selv means 'self' right? I have only seen examples of it meaning 'even' when combined with 'om', so if there are more, let me know. Til og med is a phrase I'm still not sure about. Finally, there's 'enda' which I've seen translated as even in Google Translate. Though I've learned it's used similar to 'ennå'. What is a good resource with all these in there to make this less confusing?
It can mean "(him/her/it)self" too, yes:
Hun bygde det selv = She built it herself
"Selv" is often used to mean "even", even without "om". In the same way "even" can be used without "if": "selv + da/når", "selv + pronoun/noun", "selv + preposition".
Selv da jeg var ung... = Even when I was young...
Selv han snakker norsk. = Even he speaks Norwegian.
Selv bjørnen sover. = Even the bear sleeps.
Selv inni huset er det kaldt. = Even inside the house, it's cold.
"Selv" (in the meaning of "even") and "til og med" are largely interchangeable, but there are sentence constructs where "til og med" is requried, my example above being one of them. I'm struggling to pin-point what forces this, but I think it is when the meaning of "even" is something akin to "in addition/additionally". "Selv" is safe to use at the beginning of sentences, where it modifies the subject.
If you're using "even" for comparison, it translates to "enda". It would be wrong to use "ennå" in this meaning.
enda bedre = even better
"Ennå" means "yet" or "still", however, in recent years "enda" has been added as a spelling variation of "ennå". I would recommend sticking to "ennå" in this meaning; it will warm many a Norwegian teacher's heart, and save you from any potential judgement for those who never learnt about the new option.
Katten er ute ennå. = The cat is still outside.
Katten har ennå ikke kommet inn. = The cat hasn't come inside yet."
Since you're a rather advanced learner at this point, I'd suggest that you use the official dictionary for these sort of issues - at least as a first stop. For tricky words like this there will often be ample examples, so even if you don't understand every word you'll likely be able to piece it together.
I tried to Google the difference, between "til og med" and "selv", but Google decided I'm probably turning senile and sent me to one of my own answers. So, here's one more.
I was thinking about this, and I think the use of "To and with" kind of makes sense as "even" if you really think about it. It took me a while to grasp, though. Because like, if you think about the words "to and with" literally, it kind of balances out to even. I don't know, I can't explain things well...
Would it also be correct to day : "ja, selv deg" ? It seems wrong, but I wonder if it has the same meaning because if I can remember correctly "selv" means "even", ikke sant?