I really don't understand the use of 'che' in this sentence, why isn't it 'e'?
I read this sentence as "I eat both vegetables that meat"
maybe you understand it better if you see it this way: "I eat whether it's meat or vegetables". Sia, from the verb "to be", it's used to generate this conditional structure. The program won't admit my answer though, so don't try it, but it meas the same.
It seems to be similar to "I eat, be it vegetable or meat." That would also explain why verdura is singular.
Correct but in that case it should accept 'vegetable' since it's singular 'verdura'. It is not.
Yes verdura is always singular and can mean both vegetable (sing) and vegetables (pl)
I don't know if you kniw Spanish but can it be something also like: yo como ya sea vegetales o carne"
"sia ... che" hasn't been taught though "sia ... sia" and "che" have been. Duolingo, are we just supposed to be guessing now?
No, you're supposed to be learning :) Sometimes they just throw new stuff at us, you get it wrong, you learn it, re-do the lesson and have learned a new word or idiom.
This is the first time that I've ever seen "sia", but the hover hints helped me out just fine.
If you're using the app, just click on any words underlined with dots "......" and you'll see the hint in a pop up.
I don't like how Duolingo expects us to know stuff we haven't learned in their previous sections of the program. I think this is a vital error in their thought and programming.
I understand what you are saying. I guess we are all different in our learning styles but I tend to remember something better if I have been tripped up by it once. Some of DLs surprises have stuck better in my head
Strange but true that we tend to remember our mistakes better than our successes!
Maybe forget the hearts and lingots and focus on the learning instead. ;)
I imagine you sitting at an executive meeting, giving an honest suggestion, followed by being thrown out of the window.
I understand. Duolingo does have it's own way of reinforcing the learning. For some of us (in medicine) mistakes are not as well tolerated though ("oh, my patient died but I sure learned a lot!"). I'll have to make sure that I adjust my attitude before approaching Duo!
We don't know every word in the English language. But when we hear a new one, we attempt to figure out the meaning via the context. Then we think about and, hopefully, remember it. It makes learning more challenging and, therefore, more interesting.
How do you expect to learn something you don't already know, if you already know it first?
It makes sense, but after you get through a certain bit of you you start to understand a structure. Plus they allow you to cheat by hovering over each new word. So they really are teaching it to you, immediately in context, instead of treating you like a baby and teaching you every single word separately like it's on a flashcard. They are trying to speed up the practical use/get you as fluent as fast as possible, so you can actually speak in person with a native Italian. You may not use "sia... che" in your every day conversational Italian, but they will make sure you know it in case you ever want to sound really grammatically perfect.
Although I'm just learning Italian and I, too, was confused by the introduction of "sia... che", I am also a graduate student in Applied Linguistics... which is a fancy way to say "Second Language Acquisition (SLA) epistemology and theory." I say this only to introduce the scholarly perspective that involves immersing students with unknown content as a method of language instruction. This method is highly regarded in the academic community and it's commonly referred to as the Zone of Proximal Development (ZPD). It seems this peer community is serving as the mentor in the ZPD instruction model and I'm grateful to those who contributed. I found several examples very helpful. Thanks.
I was amused by the fact that "applied linguistics" is a fancy way to say "Second Language Acquisition (SLA) epistemology and theory" - I'd have thought it was vice versa ;)
That is my question. I'm not sure that I am really understanding the difference.
I think we use sia..che.. when you want to say both...and.... I got my answer right by putting both..and..the context will tell.
They are trying to speed up the practical use/get you as fluent as fast as possible, so you can actually speak in person with a native Italian. You may not use "sia... che" in your every day conversational Italian, but they will make sure you know it in case you ever want to sound really grammatically perfect.
So, to be clear, are you saying that "sia...che" is generally considered more formal than "sia...sia"? If so, that's helpful to know.
So the word "che" is typically "that" but also frequently "what" and now it's also "and"? I understand that words rarely translate perfectly but this one is throwing me for a loop.
Try and think of che by itself as that, and sia........che as a together expression. Dont try and logically understand it, just remember it
hahaha...can totally understand your pain. I was/am puzzled too! There are limits to flexibility in usage of a term :P
Thanks, it helped me figured it out that it like the spanish sea or portugues seja, taken from the verb ser (essere in italian) but used also as both
There was an earlier sentence in this same lesson (though I'm not sure that everyone sees the same sentences in the same order) which was something like: Io cucino sia verdura sia carne" (I don't remember if that was it exactly, but it was something like that. I'm not sure "sia" appeared twice, but it appeared at least once). I put "I cook vegetables and meat" and got marked wrong because I left out the articles - it should have been "I cook both the vegetables and the meat." People in the comments explained the need for the articles by suggesting that this was a current action (I am now cooking these veggies and this meat) not just a claim about what I do regularly, or can do. So for this new sentence I put "I eat both the vegetable and the meat" (that is, I included the articles) - and got marked wrong for including them. So what gives? Is it that 'sia....sia" indicates a current action, whereas "sia.....che" indicates a habit, or ongoing action? Is that because "sia" is in the subjunctive? Even if that's it, I don't understand why it would have been in the subjunctive in the first sentence - sia.....sia - given that sentence involved a current action - "I am (now) cooking both the vegetables and the meat". Help!
I just learned about this and also don't understand. Right now I'm sort of going with what it gives me and hoping for the best (it doesn't always work.) Maybe you got wrong for saying the singular form of vegetable and meat instead of the plural form? Sorry if not helpful.
Am I the only one noticing that "verdura" is translated as "vegetables" and not "vegetable"? And I know it's not normal, because in previous lessons Duolingo used "verdure".
you're using both vegetable and meat in the singular. This is more appropriate: "Mangio sia la verdura sia la carne"
Thanks for this. I got this wrong and couldn't understand why. It sort of makes sense now (I think!). Onward and upward!
I noticed that too and I was marked wrong for writing it as 'vegetable'. Is there even a choice between using singular word when you mean plural and visa-verca. I think that's an error. I should simply be 'Verdura - vegetable' and 'Verdure - vegetables' ....why to complicate?
To me in both languages it seems perfectly fine, as a native speaker would put it. In English the unspecific plural just is vegetables (the singular doesn't make any sense) and in Italian it is simply the singular. One should rather learn to translate the sense correctly than strictly literally.
no, I put that and it was marked wrong - it's "both...and" - but how sia....sia and sia...che differ beats me at this point.
I think so and that's how I said it and yet, if you do, you are marked wrong. I will report it and see if anything happens.
I think it looks same but not really same, if you say" it is good" do you think that it is same as you say, " it is not bad "
I had a hard time finding the sia...che form online, but i finally found this on wordreference.com:<pre>
He's both tall and handsome. È sia alto che bello.</pre>
I still don't understand the grammatical logic of it, but I don't care. I plan on using it and remembering it, perche è sia utile che divertente ;-)
I see this sentence is still generating confusion. I blame this on DuoLIngo--which I otherwise love! I'm a student, so take my input with caution, but... When I first saw "sia verdura che carne" I thought for sure it was an error and I even commented on it. I was wrong. I was expecting a construction like ne...ne. Where does the "che" suddenly come from? Especially when sia...sia is also a valid construction. There are no grammatical explanations offered in the exercises, so we were all left hanging. Well, I read a lot more and I see sia...sia and sia...che constructions in articles. Researching it further I see that sia...sia is the older form and parallels other constructions like siano...siano or fosse...fosse. Sia...che is a more recent construction. Further, in long, compound sentences, where the things being compared are long phrases (not just a meat and a vegetable) containing one or more "that's" (in italiano che), the extra "che" of che...che can lead to confusion. We won't see this in DuoLingo (probably), so understanding both forms is useful.
This seems pretty nuanced to be introduced this early inthe learning process
Sometimes the comments in Duolingo are essential for my understanding. Thank you!!!
Earlier we had " sia .. sia .." meaning " both .. and ..". Are they used in the same context? One of the links says "more colloquial" - is that the only difference? (And then why do we learn sia.. sia.. but not egli / essi?)
Please clarify the singular vegetable and meat. Will the nouns always be singular while using sia/che?
It doesn't depend on the sia/che (which is however grammatically incorrect in Italian, even if much used). It's just that you used the singular "verdura" as an uncountable noun, when referring to "all the vegetables" in general. "Le verdure" refers to some particular vegetables.
En español se traduciría como "tanto... como...", no? "Como tanto verduras como carne"....
I would think that would translate as " I eat as many/much vegetables as meat"
Yeah it's a bit annoying that Duo just expects you to know things sometimes, but we learn it and redo the lesson and move on. We as humans have such issues with being wrong. It's okay, to be wrong sometimes, no one thinks you're dumb, really. With that being said, we should all remember that this is a program that is teaching us a language for free, with no strings attached. This is a valuable resource which we should appreciate before we go complaining.
My Italian husband says that 'sia' is rarely used and if you do want to use 'sia' and 'che' you absolutely need the articles. Sia la verdura...che la carne.
So must one ALWAYS use both sia & che together. Like the letter 'u' always follows 'q'?
secondo me . . . they need to be clearer when to use the article for the singular vegetable!
For me it helps thinking about "sia ... che" as "as well ... as", but I am not sure if it completely correct.
Finalmente alguien que habla español... También deduje que es "tanto... como," pero no entiendo muy bien el porqué de "verduras" en plural!
So 'I eat be it meat or vegetables' seems the most accurate english translation if 'sia' is a version of 'essere' - but then could you say 'mangio sia vedura o carne' - or would that be wrong?
I always find it helps my Italian pronunciation if I use hand gestures. Go figure.
Interesting as I did google translate and it said 'Mangio due verdure e carne" which makes more sense to me.
I did this same sentence on Google Translate & it came back with a meaning of : "I eat Two vegetables and meat". Which makes More sense since due = two. For just the word Both Google said.... Tutti e due . Which I have heard many times for meaning - Both.
That would mean " I eat two vegetables and meat" which has not much relation to the original phrase. Sia-che would mean one or the other (either one).
No...there has been some mistake. I also used google translate and it said 'mangio verdure e carne'. 'Due' is not there and it wouldn't be right also. We need 'both' not 'two'. But then this sentence is without 'both'. So donno....m lost!
how are we to know if a salad is singular or plural?? at first i thought it meant a mixed salad w pieces of meat in it...if you overanalyze it, you end up w no credit
I saw in a lesson that "sia verdure sia carne" is the correct way to say this. Both vegetables and meat. It's easier for me that way.
Actually, i read this by looking at the dotted lines and it said: "I eat and vegetables and meat." It makes no sense and says im wrong
I really don't understand the usage of "chi" in general, sometimes it means "and, or, that and sometimes it's useless in the sentence"!
The translation for this is "I eat both vegetables and meat", however, the plural form for vegetables is verdure.
I answered "i eat vegetables and meat"and it marked me wrong. Why are they different? Can i please have some help on this. All i was missing was the "both" and it still marked me wrong after the second time trying.
Why does che mean so many things. Hard to keep up when one word can mean multiple things depending on the sentence :( ... perché? PERCHÉ!? lol
Verdura is singular based on the dictionary. Why wouldn't it be accepted as such? Is there a specific reason for that?
May I make a suggestion to some of you who are having trouble with this construction. Just think of "sia...que" as Italian's idiomatic way of saying "both...and". It is a correlative conjunction.
I wrote "I eat whether it is vegetables or meat" but it didn't like that option
"sia~~che" is "both~~and". is it right? is there another possible Expression?
It's helpful if you know french. This sentense would translate similarily, like: je mange autant de la verdure que de la viande". In ftench we would say a plural "des légumes" (vegetables) instead, but this works for a simple example. But i wanted ti show how "autant...que" is similar to what is used in italian and it can be translated in english as "I eat "as much" (autant) vegetables "as" (que) meat.
I also found this explanation (see link below). It has something to do with the outcome/ context. Both.. and .. (sia ... sia ...) “Sia + sia” can also express “Whether (this), OR (that), the result is still the same.” Whether... or... (Sia + che)
I eat/cook BOTH the veggies AND the meat or, WHETER I eat veggies OR meat, i like them both..
Hope I interpreted the explanation right. Here's the link: http://icebergproject.co/italian/2015/11/how-to-use-sia-sia-in-italian-or-how-to-say-both-pasta-and-pizza-sound-good/
"But I’ve heard “sia + che,” too. Is that wrong? Nope. Using the “sia + che” construction is right, too, but “sia + sia” is preferred because it lessens the chance that your next “che” could be confused as “that,” especially in lengthy sentences"
Or "sia... sia", apparently. According to the link you provided, "sia... che" is not as correct.
"Nota: Come cong. viene usata la forma sia... sia... (o anche quella meno corretta sia... che...)"
I did confirm with a native speaker first, and he says sia...che, colloquially, whether or not it's more grammatically correct ;)
One way of looking at it is that sia is the subjunctive of essere. The use of the english subjunctive, now old fashioned would be, I eat be it vegetable or meat. In modern english "both" works much better but for me it helps to think of that construction rather than a word meaning something entirely different
Yes.. I can't figure out a good English equivalent. It's more like "I eat as much vegetable as meat". So "and" wouldn't make sense
Thanks...of all comments this helps...along with another that says it's a fixed expression! Saying it that way in English helped me understand better knowing Portuguese as it compares well...eu como tanto (x amount) vegetais que carne. Expression together makes for "as much as" so I guess in Italian it's slightly different with using 'both' (sia)...
Unless sia has more meanings and is actually same in this context then, but with duolingo giving the "both" and "and" in the answer only. :s
@Juliennelachance - are you a native Italian? It sounds to me like a better translation could also be "as much meat as vegetables", but I'm just learning.
"Io mangio sia verdura che carne." Translation: "I eat both vegetables and meat." it's perfect.
sia...che = sia...sia = both...and
It's just a fixed expression. It's just like an English student asking why you use "either" and not just "or... or..." in "either ... or ...".
this amazing flexibility in eating patterns will serve me well, methinks..
I translated this sentence as, " I eat both vegetable and meat" because "verdura" is the singular form for the English word, "vegetable". Is not "verdure" the plural form for the English word "vegetables?" The Italian word "carne" is also singular form in this sentence, instead of being the plural form "carni" And so, if this is going to be translated with plural form for vegetables, should it not also have the plural form for meats too? Io mangio sia verdure e carni. Confusing!
Looks like a simple mistake to me. The translation given is both...and. That would be Sia Sia, as in their instructional example. I'm only a student, but I see nothing in the tutorial that indicates che is correct