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  5. "Kia patro, tia filo."

"Kia patro, tia filo."

Translation:Like father, like son.

June 10, 2015



"What a father, that kind of son."


En la angla vere oni diras “like father, like son”, sed en esperanto tio povas esti “kia patrino, tia filino” (vidu la “Proverbaro Esperanta” tie ĉi).

Do bonus, ke vi akceptu “kia patro, tia filo” kiel la traduko de la angla proverbo, kaj “like mother, like daughter” kiel la traduko de la esperanta, sed bonvolu ŝanĝi tiun ĉi frazon laŭdevene.


This sentence structure is similar to Polish: "jaki ojciec, taki syn". That literally means "what kind of father, that kind of son," which ultimately would translate to "like father like son".


De tal palo, tal astilla.

Der Apfel fällt nicht weit vom Stamm.

Si el pare es mùsic el fill es ballador.


Aquesta no me la sabia en català (i en alemany tampoc l'havia sentit mai).


Now for a fact the next time I see kia or tia I will think the word like and wonder why it does not work. Why not just use the word for alike or similar in the first place like egale or simila? Simila patro, egale filo.


Because it's English that is using words in strange places and not Esperanto. :D English like mother, like daughter is a fixed expression from Ezekiel 16:44, but some translations put it in a more reasonable way, saying as is the mother, so is her daughter.

In Esperanto kia patrino, tia filino is listed in the Proverbaro Esperanta, so the aforementioned sentence is a reference to that and not a translation of the English idiom.


Dankon, Between this reply and previous posts from you I was able to figure this saying out some.


For "as is the mother, so is her daughter" couldn't you say something like "kiel estas la patrino, do estas la filino"?


Kiel is “as, how” but regarding way of functioning, manner, and here we say “as” meaning being same kind, having same property, which is kia.

Do is “so” but as a conjunction of implication, reasoning, like “therefore, so, hence”; here we want to say “so” meaning “the same kind is” which is tia.


So if you were to say "He is like an animal" you would say "Li estas kia besto" instead of "kiel besto"?

Wouldn't that just mean "What kind of animal is he?"


Could you use kiel/tiel here also?


No, because it isn't right to use “kiel” and “tiel” with the verb “estas” already feeded with a subject, which is implied in this sentence as “kia [estas] patro, tia [estas] filo”.

But you surely can say “kiel pentras la patro, tiel pentras la filo” or anything similar, with the verb being fine taking the “kiel” or “tiel” introduction. Alternatively, it's fine to use “kiel” or “tiel” with the verb “estas”, which doesn't have a subject, so for example to say “tiel estas en Hispanujo”.


Are you sure about that first paragraph? I'm not that experienced yet at Esperanto, but I wouldn't have thought it would be wrong. If you have a source for it somewhere (some part of PMEG, perhaps?), that would be very helpful.


I'm pretty sure, though it's not something I would expect to be in a grammar book, because it's not exactly the matter of grammar, but the meaning of the verb “esti”. I tried, but I couldn't find anything precisely on this topic.

Unfortunately, it also isn't easy to check for those constructions using the Tekstaro. You can try to search using expression similar to “\best\VF [^,.:;?!]*?tiel\b” (a word boundary — “e” — “s” — “t” — any verb ending — a space — any sign — except — “,” — “.” — “:” — “;” — “?” — or “!” — — repeated any number of times — matched in a lazy way — “t” — “i” — “e” — “l” — a word boundary), but then you have to check whether it fits my description (“«esti» feeded with a subject”) manually.


Well, PMEG does have a lot of things about certain specific important words. I found this page. It has the following example: "Por li delogi knabinon estas kiel krevigi nukson." Couldn't you similarly imagine an "estas" in there? "Por li delogi knabinon estas kiel [estas] krevigi nukson." I recognize that there are some dissimilarities with the sentence under discussion here, but there are also similarities, and it unfortunately was the best I could find.

Is it really possible searching that way with Tekstaro? Oh, yes; I just found the instructions on the website. Nice: it's even more like a proper corpus than I thought. Okay, I think I've worked out the code more or less. However, things like "bestVF" and "tielb" should probably be "\bestVF" and "tiel\b", right? (EDIT: Oh, I see, it just doesn't show the slash here in Duolingo. In fact both it and the asterisk gave me trouble because the asterisk creates italics. I should just use code.) Let me have a go now...

Okay, so I tried a number of things and eventually used the expression /bkiel est/VF [^,.;:!? ]*o/b. Of course, that has the problem that you only get potential subjects that are just one word, so I also tried /bkiel est/VF [^,.;:!?]*?o/b, but that one has more false positives for our purposes.

Anyway, I found some potential examples, but I can't be sure as in all honesty, I don't entirely understand what you mean with "«esti» feeded with a subject". Let me know whether these apply:

  • Kaj vi kredas, ke homo, tiel inteligenta kiel estas Herbeno, riskos tian eventualecon.
  • kaj, kiam Don Kiĥoto supreniris la dekstran ŝtuparon, la tuta kanajlarosalutis [sic] lin, kiel estas kutimo, kiam eminenta persono eniras en la galeron
  • Kaj Maria diris al la anĝelo: Kiel estos tio, ĉar mi ne konas viron?
  • Kiel esti hungaro?
  • Sed mi ne kredas, ke li trovos Elvisan tiel facile kondukebla, kiel estis Oresto.
  • Ili ĉiuj ne vidas ke Bruselo estas tiel multlingva, kiel estis Bjalistoko.
  • Kiel estis mia sorto travive, ĉiam elekti la plej malbonon; tiel same mi nun faris.

Gave you a Lingot for making me aware of the possibilities of Tekstaro :)


Could this be translated "As father, thus son"? Or does "tia"-> "thus" not work?


I think "As the father, thus the son" is a reasonable translation. But I doubt it has been proposed and added as a correct solution, so it will likely not be accepted


"what the father is like, the son is like" seems to me to be a verbose but suitable translation for kia/tia. They refer to an adjective quality.


La pomo ne falas malproksima el la arbo!


What does that mean?


What does that mean‽


Cxu oni povas diri ankaux 'tia patro, kia filo'?


Gramatike tio estas tute bona, sed la signifo estas alia. Normale oni rimarkas, ke filo similas al sia patro, kaj ne inverse. :)


Probably a reference to this great tune... or not.


Kial sen artikoloj? Kial ne: "Kia la patro, tia la filo"?


Because we're not talking about any specific father nor any specific son of his. That's a general statement valid for any father at all and any of his sons.


The father is specific, it is specifically the father of the son mentioned, not some other father, and the son is specifically the son of that father mentioned before, not some other son. In this case, the uze of 'la' would be necessary. May I cite PMEG? http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/difiniloj/la/individuajhoj.html La tiam signifas pli-malpli “vi scias, pri kiu(j) mi parolas”. Additionally one say this normally with a specific pair of father and son in mind. Or this one: http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/difiniloj/la/specoj.html "Iafoje oni rigardas specon kiel unu imagan konatan individuon, kaj uzas la. Tio estas sufiĉe ofta en formala aŭ filozofieca stilo." kaj tiu ekzemplo: "La kato preferas varman klimaton."


Specific isn't the right term here. (Yes, I occasionally use it because it's often easier to understand.) What we really mean is "definite." "Definite" has a specific meaning that is difficult to describe, but which comes intuitively for speakers of languages like French, English, or German.

Basically, "definite" means it has the word "the" (or some similar word) in front of it.

Yes, it would be possible to construct a phrase like "There's a father and a son. The father is like the son." That's a perfectly valid sentence. However, it's not the sentence (or sentences) we're discussing here.

We are discussing two well-known sayings. The first is English:

  • Like father, like son.

The second is Esperanto. It was originally in the Proverbaro about mothers and daughters. (Kia patrino, tia filino.) The father/son version is also well-known.

  • Kia patro, tia filo.

The Esperanto version and the English version mean the same thing. Fathers, in general, set the stage for how sons (in general) are going to be.


Mi scias tiun proverbon el la Germana: "Wie der Vater, so der Sohn": Kia la patro, tia la filo. Verŝajne tiu regulo http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/difiniloj/la/specoj.html estas la plej taŭga. Bonvole vidu jen: http://www.ilei.info/ipr/proverbante.htm Tie vi trovis "Kia la patro, tia la filo."

  • 1563

I've seen this before as kiel patro tiel filo what is the difference here


Where have you seen that? My first thought is that it's a mistake.


Google can find only one webpage where this sentence appears and it is exactly this page.


Versxajne la originala estas " Kia patrino, tia filino."

P.S. I got over 2000 hits.


Can you say "Kiel patro, tiel filo"? What is the difference?


The words kiel and tiel are adverb-like, so they would have to refer to a verb. And so your sentence isn't grammatically correct, because it isn't complete.

A correct sentence would be Kiel agas patro, tiel agas filo or Kiel faras patro, tiel faras filo.

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