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"Mi invitis mian amikon kaj ankaŭ ties patron."

Translation:I invited my friend and also his father.

June 12, 2015

31 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/babelpescado

Although it was marked correct (I assumed 'ties' meant someone else's father), how do I differentiate between my friend's father and the father of that guy standing over there? Hopefully that makes sense...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Li invitis sian amikon kaj sian patron. = He invited his friend and his own father (father of the subject).
Li invitis sian amikon kaj ties patron. = He invited his friend and their father (father of the friend (‘their’ just because amiko is gender neutral; replace with ‘he’ or ‘she’ if gender is known obviously).
Li invitis sian amikon kaj lian patron. = He invited his friend and his father (someone else's father or the friend's father (ambiguous, but definitely not the subject's father)).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rsail

Thank you for the example, but it doesn't address the question at hand. MI invitis mian amikon kaj ankaŭ ties patron.

Could you please explain the difference between: ... kaj ankaŭ ties patron ... kaj ankaŭ lian/ŝian patron

Am I correct in assuming that sian patron can't be used here because the subject is not in 3rd person?

I really would like to understand this confusing sentence. Looking forward to your insight!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

"Ties patron" is the father of someone you already mentioned. It cannot be the subject (it would be a reflexive, here "mian"). "Lian patron" could be the friend's father, or someone else's father. "Sian patron" is not possible because it's the third person reflexive, and the subject here is the first person.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

And specificially, tiu here has to be "not the subject". Here's how PMEG explains it.

Ties estas ankaŭ uzebla por fari distingon inter malsamaj personoj aŭ aferoj. Tiam prefere tio, kio antaŭe aperis kiel subjekto, estu reprezentata de lia, ŝia, ĝia aŭ ilia, dum alia persono, aĵo aŭ grupo estu reprezentata per ties


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

Joost posted this comment 5 years ago. I'll be interested to see if he comes back to comment.

I've posted a new comment elsewhere in this thread.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

You are right that sian does not apply here. Other than that my argument above about the difference between ties and lian still holds, just like LouisSepdekdu mentioned. Usually from context both will make it clear you're talking about your friend's father, but ties is the definitely unambiguous.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

Are you sure it's "from context"? PMEG lists a few different use cases for ties and it seems to me that it's the sentences without ties that rely on context, if anything.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

That's what I'm saying. My sentence is kind of poor formulated, sorry. But I said that lian (and also ties) can mean the friend's father in context, but that ties unambiguously does so.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Smalde

I think that it has to be understood from the context


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/traevoli

If I were referring to the father of that guy standing over there, I would say "ties patro" and point to that guy.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dema90

"ties" refers to the very person, one is talking about in that moment, so this shouldn't result in confusion. Could you think of an example sentence with a friend, that one's father AND a random stranger who is nearby? Then we can try to figure it out.

btw, in the sentence above "ties" is not even necessary, one could use "lia". You only need "ties" when the subject of the sentence is already a third person, as shown in the tips and tricks section.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/richard3030

Your two paragraphs contradict each other.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ActualGoat

Is this different to sian because we are talking about the object of the verb, and not the subject?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elechim

if I get what you're saying; here was ties because it relates to a part of speech that is not the subject, while sia relates to a subject (third person).

They both are more specific than lia, which is more like a "his" in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Small correction: if lia (or ŝia) was used, it was definitely not about the subject, but it would still be ambiguous whether it was their friend's father or just someone else's father.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

I find it interesting that patro is an object here. It makes sense when I think about it, but I have to think about it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/babelpescado

Same here, it took me a second to put the grammar together..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/salivanto

Could you please explain the difference between: ... kaj ankaŭ ties patron ... kaj ankaŭ lian/ŝian patron

  • "Mi invitis mian amikon kaj ankaŭ ties patron."

I invited my friend and (the friend's) father.

  • "Mi invitis mian amikon kaj ankaŭ lian/ŝian patron."

Not much difference in this context - except you have to know whether the friend is male or female. It's also possible to mix it up with another he or she if there were another he or she involved.

Am I correct in assuming that sian patron can't be used here because the subject is not in 3rd person?

Yes. That's why it's mian. The reason you can't use "sian" in place of "ties" is that it's not the subject's father.

You can think of ties as "the latter's" - and in this sentence it doesn't make much of a difference.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rsail

Great. I get it now. Thanks for explaining!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Fantomius

How would "kaj ankaŭ ties patron" differ from "kaj ankaŭ lian patron" ?

In other words, I don't quite see what advantage "ties" has over "lian", unless "ties" is used because it does not necessarily refer to "mian amikon".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

In this case it doesn't really matter, but in some cases it can help make things unambiguous. I exemplified this elsewhere in this thread.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Salvesen

How do we know that "ties" is his and not hers?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

We technically don't, because amiko is not necessarily male. However, you would usually use amikino for a female friend.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LouisSepdekdu

You would use amikino only if for some reason you want to specify that the friend is female.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mark6662

ties means "that one's". So whose father was invited? not my frineds


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Here ties refers back to the friend, so the friend's father was invited.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mark6662

So, would "lian" be acceptable?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joffysloffy

Yes, it would. However, in that case the sentence becomes ambiguous: it can either be the friend's father or someone else's father.

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