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"Kiu estas ĉi tiu virino, kiu dormas ĉi tie?"

Translation:Who is this woman who sleeps here?

3 years ago

21 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/kaethevir
kaethevir
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I ask myself that question every time...

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Makaber00
Makaber00
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Is this sentence a subordinate clause, or is it two combined sentences? The English is ambiguous. Could it mean "This woman who sleeps here, who is she?" Or could it be "Who is this woman? Who is it who is sleeping here?"

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mutusen
Mutusen
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It is a subordinate clause. Theoretically it could be two sentences, but I in this case I would write them separately: Kiu estas ĉi tiu virino? Kiu dormas ĉi tie?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Makaber00
Makaber00
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So, is the Esperanto as ambiguous as the English?

In German it would be clear. In German the translation would be either: "Wer ist diese Frau, die hier schlaeft?" or "Wer ist diese Frau? Wer schlaeft hier?", but the two German sentences have slightly, but clearly different meanings (unlike the English).

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Aramande

I don't know if it's accepted or not, but from what I could tell you could theoretically use ke instead of kiu the second time.

Kiu estas ĉi tiu virino, ke dormas ĉi tie?

Who is this woman that sleeps here?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mutusen
Mutusen
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No, this is definitely incorrect. Ke is a conjunction, not a pronoun.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mutusen
Mutusen
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Wanting to use ke as a relative pronoun is a common mistake of English and Romance-speaking beginners, because that (or que) in these languages have several meanings, but you can't use ke in this sentence because it just doesn't make sense.

If you want, you can read the PMEG pages about ke and relative clauses.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Aramande

It would be incorrect for the translation, but would it be wrong grammatically and/or semantically?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Aramande

From what I understand Kiu, kio and kies can be used as descriptive clauses, describing a subject or object in the mainclause. Ke seems to have many uses, but it doesn't describe a single word. I guess I'll have to get better to understand the finer details of Ke, but for now I know enough to tell the difference.

Have a lingot, as thanks. :D

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Mutusen
Mutusen
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It is grammatically wrong.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Aramande

Do you happen to have any sources that describe why Ke can't be used in this fashion? Because I can't see why it would be wrong.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JohnReid8
JohnReid8
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It is definitely very much correct as this is clearly a main clause and a subordinate clause, it makes perfect sense.

What is incorrect is using a pronoun where a conjunction is clearly called for.

Why people would want to use a pronoun in this context I'll never know.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/HokonoSerejdo
HokonoSerejdo
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Ke means "that", but it is conjunction "that", not relative pronoun "that" - and as usual, it is English that is ambiguous, not Esperanto (I seem to always point that out these days).

Ke can thus never function as a subject or object of a sentence, it just links two clauses together, and the second clause also needs its subject and predicate to be a complete sentence:

I see that you are sleeping here. (conj) Mi vidas, ke vi dormas ĉi tio.

I see you that sleep here. (pronoun) Mi vidas vin, kiu(j) dormas ĉi tio.

3 weeks ago

https://www.duolingo.com/talideon
talideon
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The ambiguity is resolved by where the rising tone marking the question falls in the case of both English and Esperanto.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/erikblomqvist
erikblomqvist
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Ŝi estas la dormanta belulino.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Brielo.o
Brielo.o
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Kiel vi diras Goldilocks en Esperanto?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Siavel

Laŭ Vikipedio kaj Glosbe, la traduko de Goldilocks estas Orbuklulino.

4 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BiaOliveir8
BiaOliveir8
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"ĉi tiu" have the meaning of "this one"?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/stjohnmccloskey

What is the first cxi doing in this sentence?

In other words, what would be different if we said "Kiu estas tiu virino, kiu dormas cxi tie?"

11 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Brielo.o
Brielo.o
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"Tiu virino" = "That woman"; "Ĉi tiu virino" = "This woman". In this case, it indicates proximity.

11 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Siavel

The first ĉi changes the meaning of tiu from that to this. The second ĉi changes the meaning of tie from there to here.

So, if you said "Kiu estas TIU virino [...]", it means "Who is THAT woman [...]". If you mean "Who is THIS woman [...]", you should say "Kiu estas ĈI TIU virino [...]".

4 months ago