"Jen la detruo fare de la musoj."

Translation:Here is the destruction made by the mice.

June 21, 2015

39 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VincentOostelbos

I love this sentence. "Jen" makes it very amusing.

June 21, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

Behold! the ravages of the swarming herds of rodents which have been wrought upon our glorious pantry!

July 7, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ichteltelch

You may thank me that "Behold the destruction wrought by the mice" is now accepted.

July 9, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

En ordo, dankon.

July 9, 2015

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Israelguide

Not to complain, as I love this course, but why do I get this sentence ca twice in every lesson set, at least 5x and usually much more, every day? It's already a bit disturbing. I am in favor of repetition, but this seems to be a bit "over and above." Thanks, Martha

June 8, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

I'm sorry to read that, I really do wish that I could help.

Or you could blame the mice?

June 8, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Israelguide

I already did blame the mice, and they came and ate all my camembert. THAT was detruo for real. But I really get a lot out of my studies during these last few months. I guess this is what's called "1st World Problems." Dankon ankaux por la helpo. Martha

June 8, 2017

[deactivated user]

    I don't understand this. I do the same Duolingo Esperanto course, and for me, the sentence, "Jen la detruo fare de la musoj" only comes in this lesson. (It may crop up in some of the revision lessons, but as far as I can remember, it hasn't for me). But of course I may have completely misunderstood what you meant!

    June 9, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

    Excellent!

    November 29, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AGreatUserName

    Lo

    August 2, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JamesBulls

    What is the deal with using adverbs as participles, or as some kind of stand-in for a regular verb? Everything we've read up to this point says -e is for adverbs (describing how an actions was performed), and on the surface this sentence doesn't follow any of the rules that have been presented thus far in the course.

    July 19, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sarah_SC

    (Disclaimer: I'm just another learner, i could be wrong. If so i welcome corrections!)

    I've been puzzling over this for awhile myself, so i did a bit of searching around and found a thread (en Esperanto) on Lernu! on this exact sentence. The general consensus seemed to be that both "fare de" and "farita de" (or even "farata de", if the mice were still working!) are correct. I couldn't find anything on why -e is used, but "fare de" appears to be treated together as a preposition (equivalent to "made by") rather than an adverb followed by "de".

    One potential reason to use "fare de" in lieu of a participle is that it does not require knowing the timing of the event. To use "farita" we need to decide between it and "farata" or even "farota". Here past tense is logical, but other sentences might not be so clear cut.

    The reasoning for "fare de" revolves around what happens if "fare" was omitted as in "Jen la detruo de la musoj." Here the sentence is ambiguous, and "the destruction of the mice" can be interpreted as the mice BEING destroyed as opposed to being the culprits.

    Regarding whether or not "faris" would work, i'm unsure of it but i suspect that since "Jen" functions similarly to a verb (here IS), you may not be able to just insert a non-infinitive verb without changing the sentence further.

    Hopefully somebody with a bit more knowledge can shed some light on exactly what is going on here.

    July 24, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/seveer

    I'm having a similar feeling about pere de except that there we are turning a preposition per-which is already adverbial- into a grammatical adverb in a prepositional phrase! And it is seemingly purely to slightly narrow the meaning. This seems highly idiomatic and I don't see that it has any of the justifications you cite here. Do you have any thoughts on this?

    July 27, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/traevoli

    I've always been a little iffy on the distinction between "per" and "pere de" but I tend to think of them thus:

    • "per" = via, with
    • "pere de" = by means of

    Step by Step in Esperanto offers this example sentence:

    • "Mi povas marŝi per helpo de (pere de) bastono."

    Is there much difference?

    • Mi povas marŝi per helpo de bastono.
    • Mi povas marŝi pere de bastono.
    • Mi povas marŝi per bastono.

    Not much...

    August 17, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Fantomius

    Thank you for your research. Even if you're not 100% correct here, I appreciate all the effort you went through.

    Dankegon!

    March 12, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PatriciaJH

    Esperanto adverbs can modify clauses, sentences and phrases as well as verbs. Here "farite" is modifying "de la musoj."

    IT''S... SUPER ADVERB! Leaping whole clauses with a single bound!

    September 10, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davgwynne

    This is what catches me out in Esperanto. Adverbs seem to be able to modify anything, not just verbs and adjectives as would normally be the case in English. Here the mice and the the destruction are both nouns. On the other hand "of the mice" is really an adjectival phrase so it does make sense. I might get there in the end.

    July 17, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PatriciaJH

    Actually, adverbs modify almost anything in English, too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverb

    July 20, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Strigulino

    I was wondering why "fare" is not "faris" myself. There's no verb in this sentence.

    July 21, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GastonDorren

    Well, I agree with Sarah_SC that 'jen' acts as a stand-in for a verb. Compare French 'voilà la destruction'.

    July 25, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Fantomius

    I agree that "jen" can act as a stand-in for a verb.

    "Jen" literally translates to "Ecco" in Italian and "Ecce" in Latin, neither of which require a verb when being used in a sentence.

    For example, "Ecce homo!" ("Behold the man!") is grammatically correct Latin, despite the lack of a verb.

    August 15, 2015

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NRizel

    I tought it was made by Mussolini lol

    February 14, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rippler

    MOUSSOLINI??

    April 1, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Miki MUSolini??

    May 5, 2016

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OJPhoenix

    Mouse Hunt

    March 23, 2017

    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FredCapp

    Jen la ĉaso farita por la musoj!

    March 26, 2017

    [deactivated user]

      "Destruction made by the mice" sounds very unnatural in British English. We'd say something such as, "Here is the destruction the mice did" or "Here is the destruction done by the mice". After all, "fari" can mean "to do".

      January 16, 2016

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Davgwynne

      I used "damage caused by" purely because destruction sounded unnatural. It was accepted.

      July 11, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Markqz
      • 1364

      No matter how carefully I listen, I can't hear "la" in "Jen la detruo". Is anyone else having this problem?

      August 25, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VincentOostelbos

      Sorry, I can't say I am; I can hear it quite clearly. Strange.

      August 27, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Migranto

      'Detruo' seems like hyperbole here. 'Damaĝo' sounds a bit less overdramatic.

      July 25, 2016

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fiddlerbird555

      I don't know, have you seen the mess that mice can, despite their size, leave behind?

      July 25, 2016

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VincentOostelbos

      Also it's meant to be overly dramatic, I think. It's probably meant as comedy. I thought it was amusing.

      July 29, 2016

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/s.rombaut

      How do you know whether "fare" is present or past? Is it the same as "farite"?

      March 19, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

      It's similar to "by" in English in the sense of "done by" -- there's no time built into it.

      "a bridge built by scouts" could be "a brige that is built by scouts, was built by scouts, will be built by scouts, would have been built by scouts, .....".

      March 19, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertSmit512798

      Why can it not be, "Jen la detruo faris de la musoj," as in "La musoj faris la detruon?"

      October 31, 2017

      [deactivated user]

        Because the verb "fari" is transitive, that is, it must have an object, as it does in your alternative, "La musoj faris la detruon."

        October 31, 2017

        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Greg854816

        I agree with Markqz about not hearing the 'l' in 'la'. I suspect that the distinction between 'l' and 'n' is is not always as evident as it is for many English speakers. Vincent, presumably a Nederlander, has no problem. I know an Irish person, long domiciled in England and Australia, whose children made fun of her pronouncing, for instance, 'little' as 'nittle'. It doesn't take much experimenting with tongue, teeth and hard palate to see that they are very close. I only recently came to realise that Japanese speaker's difficulty with the 'l' 'r' pair is not only in speech but also in listening. Their version of the sound has the tongue positioned somewhere between the English speaker's 'r' and 'l'. But, the interesting thing is that the have difficulty distinguishing the sounds, let alone reproducing them. (I once spent some time with a Japanese person in Tokyo eating crab in a club. He said he couldn't tell the difference between 'crab' and 'club'. Try it with a Japanese accent!) I read in a book by Gabriel Wyner (Fluent Forever) that a simple computer program can be used to train the ear to distinguish between the sounds. Finally, I sometimes find Duo's narrator seems to put an 'i' before 'j' as in 'Jen'. So I hear the start of this (in crude English phonetics) as 'eeyenna'.

        March 3, 2018
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