"Ĉiel vi devos flugi."

Translation:In any case, you will have to fly.

3 years ago

23 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/undeconstructed
undeconstructed
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How does cxiel work here? It seems like it should mean "you will have to fly in every manner" instead of "you will have you fly in any case". Or is just idiomatic, like we use "anyway" in English to mean "regardless".

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredCapp
FredCapp
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I'm with undeconstructed here. My dictionaries define Ĉiel as meaning "in every way, in all sorts of ways." And both ĉiuokaze and iel ajn meaning "in any event." When and how did ĉiel come by this shift in meaning? or did I miss something someplace else?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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PIV has this to say:

> ĉiel. En ĉia maniero: ili ĉiel helpis al ni; (vastasence) en ĉiu rilato, laŭ ĉiu supozo: ĉiel vi devos pagi.

My translation:

"ĉiel. In every way: they helped us in every way; (more broadly) in every relation, according to every supposition: In any case, you're going to have to pay"

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredCapp
FredCapp
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So (mi restas kun la angla momente) Ĉiel means essentially "In every case" but it's translated to "in any case" for our ease of understanding.

Do I have that correct?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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The basic meaning is "in every case", but it is permissible to extend it metaphorically to something like "in any event; no matter how you do it; no matter what happens; in all possible circumstances".

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredCapp
FredCapp
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Okay, makes sense of sorts. Now, about iel ajn?

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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I don't have a copy, but I suspect Mizinamo's quote is from PIV2, not PIV. It is slightly different in PIV. This same sentence was discussed in the Duolingo Esperanto FB group. Several experienced speakers were confused by this sentence. Note also that this secondary meaning is not part of PMEG. Certainly learn it for the course, but it's not at all common to use the word this way.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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My quote is from the copy available online at vortaro.net.

I believe it's based on the 2005 edition of the paper PIV.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/FredCapp
FredCapp
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Mi trovis vian citaĵon en la 2002 papera versio de la PIV kaj ju pli mi legas ĝin, des pli mi dubas vian tradukon. Wells tradukas ĉiel: (ĉiumaniere, ĉiurilate), in every way, in all sorts of ways. Li min helpis ĉiel.

La Fundamento diras: de chaque (toute) manière | in every manner | auf jede Weise ktp (Mi ne havas la cirila alfabeto sur mia klavaro) | wszelkim sposobem

La unua libro (angla eldono) definas ĉi~ kiel every, all

kaj, kiam mi serĉis por in any case en la CEED kaj la Teach yourself mi trovis in any event = ĉiuokaze. Eĉ Being Colloquial nur diras, ke ĉiel ne havas la tradukon kiun vi donis al ĝi.

Fakte, en ĉiu vortaro, kaj lernolibro kiun mi esploris, rete, kaj papere Ĉiel = ian formon de "In every manner."

Mi devas diri, ke Duo eraras kun tiu ĉi traduko. Tiaj aferoj okazas, kaj estas nenial por senti sin honta. Ja, estas la kialo por havi la "beta" disdono.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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Cxu oni jam ne diferencigas inter PIV kaj PIV2 (aux PIV2002 kaj PIV2005)? In any event, the definition in "PIV Classic" is slightly different.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JohnMoser1

Maybe they should remove this from the course, then, in favor of the idiomatic use of "Regardless", and its equivalent in Esperanto.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/salivanto
salivanto
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Since neither you nor I are "they" -- I'd prefer to focus on what you or I should do. Do you want to contact the course authors and tell them this? Do you want to make a mental note and move on to your next lesson? Do you want me to clarify my view of the matter? All these are reasonable choices -- and (IMHO) more productive than speculating on what "they" should do.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mihxal
mihxal
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You can say "Ĉiukaze, vi devos flugi".

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo
mizinamo
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Some prefer "ĉiuokaze", reserving "kazo" for a legal case, a grammatical case, or a medical case, and not for a generic "occasion, situation".

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luko.
Luko.
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In spanish is directly translated as "de todos modos deberás volas". I think it's ideomatic because "in every manner" isn't very useful.

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Ward.Joshua
Ward.Joshua
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Anyway, you'll have to fly would be a good way to think of it.

I wouldn't accept You will have to fly in every way. That adverbial expression just doesn't mean the same as in any case or anyway in this context in English. That would imply you will have to fly by plane, by helicopter, by hot air balloon, by spaceship, by flapping your arms wicked fast like a hummingbird... Either that or you'll have to hit all of the compass directions during your flight, but I don't think that's going to be a reasonable way to get from point A to point B, either... :)

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/admiralspunky

"Anyway, you'll have to fly would be a good way to think of it." - except that's exactly what I just tried, but it wasn't accepted. Should it have been?

3 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BillEverett
BillEverett
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I tried "by all means", which was rejected. As a veteran speaker of English, "in any case" is a "why" and not a "how", i.e., reason, not manner.

The fact that "anyhow" has different meanings in an English dictionary, including "in any case; in all events" does not necessarily make "ĉiel" equivalent to the meanings of "anyhow" that differ from "in any way whatever." Otherwise, we would also have proper translations "You will have to fly haphazardly" and "You will have to fly in a careless manner."

"By all means" is often used colloquially much the same as "in any case" to imply absolute necessity.

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Amikigisto
Amikigisto
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I think it would make more sense in certain contexts. An example conversation:

  • Ĉu vi flugos al Toronto?
  • Mi ne certas. Se neĝus, mi ne volus vojaĝi. Mi bozonas decidi ĉu mi flugos ĉi-vintre.
  • Ĉiel vi devos flugi.
  • Kial?
  • Ĉar via familio tie loĝas, kaj estos la geedziĝo de via kuzo.
  • Ho jes, vi pravas. Mi devos ĉeesti la geedziĝon.

Q.E.D.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Fantomius
Fantomius
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My dictionary defines "ĉiel" as "in every way."

But I'll take other people's word for it if they say it also means "in any case."

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/BillEverett
BillEverett
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Two meanings of "ĉiel" in "my" dictionary (http://vortaro.net/#%C4%89iel):

  1. "in every way or manner": ili ĉiel helpis al ni [they helped us in every way]

  2. "in every relation" or "according to every supposition" [e.g., in any case]: ĉiel vi devos pagi [in any case we will have to pay]

2 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Indarozino

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Israelguide

I found this particular sentence impossible to understand, even though i ran it over and over maybe 10 times. Sorry but not all the words were enunciated imho. Thanks

1 year ago
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