25 Comments
How does cxiel work here? It seems like it should mean "you will have to fly in every manner" instead of "you will have you fly in any case". Or is just idiomatic, like we use "anyway" in English to mean "regardless".
609
I'm with undeconstructed here. My dictionaries define Ĉiel as meaning "in every way, in all sorts of ways." And both ĉiuokaze and iel ajn meaning "in any event." When and how did ĉiel come by this shift in meaning? or did I miss something someplace else?
PIV has this to say:
> ĉiel. En ĉia maniero: ili ĉiel helpis al ni; (vastasence) en ĉiu rilato, laŭ ĉiu supozo: ĉiel vi devos pagi.
My translation:
"ĉiel. In every way: they helped us in every way; (more broadly) in every relation, according to every supposition: In any case, you're going to have to pay"
- 609
So (mi restas kun la angla momente) Ĉiel means essentially "In every case" but it's translated to "in any case" for our ease of understanding.
Do I have that correct?
The basic meaning is "in every case", but it is permissible to extend it metaphorically to something like "in any event; no matter how you do it; no matter what happens; in all possible circumstances".
- 1180
I don't have a copy, but I suspect Mizinamo's quote is from PIV2, not PIV. It is slightly different in PIV. This same sentence was discussed in the Duolingo Esperanto FB group. Several experienced speakers were confused by this sentence. Note also that this secondary meaning is not part of PMEG. Certainly learn it for the course, but it's not at all common to use the word this way.
My quote is from the copy available online at vortaro.net.
I believe it's based on the 2005 edition of the paper PIV.
- 609
Mi trovis vian citaĵon en la 2002 papera versio de la PIV kaj ju pli mi legas ĝin, des pli mi dubas vian tradukon. Wells tradukas ĉiel: (ĉiumaniere, ĉiurilate), in every way, in all sorts of ways. Li min helpis ĉiel.
La Fundamento diras: de chaque (toute) manière | in every manner | auf jede Weise ktp (Mi ne havas la cirila alfabeto sur mia klavaro) | wszelkim sposobem
La unua libro (angla eldono) definas ĉi~ kiel every, all
kaj, kiam mi serĉis por in any case en la CEED kaj la Teach yourself mi trovis in any event = ĉiuokaze. Eĉ Being Colloquial nur diras, ke ĉiel ne havas la tradukon kiun vi donis al ĝi.
Fakte, en ĉiu vortaro, kaj lernolibro kiun mi esploris, rete, kaj papere Ĉiel = ian formon de "In every manner."
Mi devas diri, ke Duo eraras kun tiu ĉi traduko. Tiaj aferoj okazas, kaj estas nenial por senti sin honta. Ja, estas la kialo por havi la "beta" disdono.
- 1180
Cxu oni jam ne diferencigas inter PIV kaj PIV2 (aux PIV2002 kaj PIV2005)? In any event, the definition in "PIV Classic" is slightly different.
Maybe they should remove this from the course, then, in favor of the idiomatic use of "Regardless", and its equivalent in Esperanto.
- 1180
Since neither you nor I are "they" -- I'd prefer to focus on what you or I should do. Do you want to contact the course authors and tell them this? Do you want to make a mental note and move on to your next lesson? Do you want me to clarify my view of the matter? All these are reasonable choices -- and (IMHO) more productive than speculating on what "they" should do.
Some prefer "ĉiuokaze", reserving "kazo" for a legal case, a grammatical case, or a medical case, and not for a generic "occasion, situation".
In spanish is directly translated as "de todos modos deberás volas". I think it's ideomatic because "in every manner" isn't very useful.
Anyway, you'll have to fly would be a good way to think of it.
I wouldn't accept You will have to fly in every way. That adverbial expression just doesn't mean the same as in any case or anyway in this context in English. That would imply you will have to fly by plane, by helicopter, by hot air balloon, by spaceship, by flapping your arms wicked fast like a hummingbird... Either that or you'll have to hit all of the compass directions during your flight, but I don't think that's going to be a reasonable way to get from point A to point B, either... :)
"Anyway, you'll have to fly would be a good way to think of it." - except that's exactly what I just tried, but it wasn't accepted. Should it have been?
I tried "by all means", which was rejected. As a veteran speaker of English, "in any case" is a "why" and not a "how", i.e., reason, not manner.
The fact that "anyhow" has different meanings in an English dictionary, including "in any case; in all events" does not necessarily make "ĉiel" equivalent to the meanings of "anyhow" that differ from "in any way whatever." Otherwise, we would also have proper translations "You will have to fly haphazardly" and "You will have to fly in a careless manner."
"By all means" is often used colloquially much the same as "in any case" to imply absolute necessity.
Seconded. I thought the sentence was goofy and put "You will have to fly in all ways". "In any way" would be "iel ajn" or something, and "Some way" would be "iel".
The idiom is dumb. It attempts to express a common but complex statement: "Regardless of prior expressed factors..." English shortens this to the implicit "Regardless," which somehow turns into "Anyway," "Anyhow," "In any case," and so forth. I suppose you could shorten "any way you approach the problem" or "any way you argue" to just "anyway," but that would likely prove a folk etymology; there are a few idioms such as "any way you slice it" (what?).
Crossing language barriers with something so ridiculous is confusing; now I know why foreigners get so lost when they encounter native English speakers. At least English speakers can efficiently reject nonsense when jumping dialects (e.g. American to Australian, you're going to identify a lot of what the other guy's saying as some ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤); ESOL speakers don't have the luxury.
- 1180
See my other comment in this thread. In the meanwhile, I've come to the conclusion that this use of "cxiel" is "possible, but not at all common." It's probably not worth sweating too much about.
I think it would make more sense in certain contexts. An example conversation:
- Ĉu vi flugos al Toronto?
- Mi ne certas. Se neĝus, mi ne volus vojaĝi. Mi bozonas decidi ĉu mi flugos ĉi-vintre.
- Ĉiel vi devos flugi.
- Kial?
- Ĉar via familio tie loĝas, kaj estos la geedziĝo de via kuzo.
- Ho jes, vi pravas. Mi devos ĉeesti la geedziĝon.
Q.E.D.
- 1372
My dictionary defines "ĉiel" as "in every way."
But I'll take other people's word for it if they say it also means "in any case."
Two meanings of "ĉiel" in "my" dictionary (http://vortaro.net/#%C4%89iel):
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"in every way or manner": ili ĉiel helpis al ni [they helped us in every way]
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"in every relation" or "according to every supposition" [e.g., in any case]: ĉiel vi devos pagi [in any case we will have to pay]
- 739
I found this particular sentence impossible to understand, even though i ran it over and over maybe 10 times. Sorry but not all the words were enunciated imho. Thanks
